 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It does rather reinforce the dangers of boarding a chair lift with your sack still on your back. I've seen people dragged around by their sacks several times.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@MadMountainMan, it's happened to me, with guests (back in the day when ski hosting was welcomed by the ESF). Most embarrassing but the only damage was to my pride.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Gaza, It was a 14 year old in 2011 - not a 11 YO. (thanks for the correction Gaza)
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 7-10-15 22:25; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Happened to me with a T Bar the first time I went skiing, not a nice experience, but it was a lesson learnt. Unfortunate the boy didn't have quite the same luck.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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...and how many of us get on chair lifts sporting our backpacks and sticking 2 fingers up at the rule to take them off? I know I have....though normally I don't have a backpack.
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on which, @Perty, if I was the lifty, I'd be making that part of my defence...
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@Perty, Not me ever since I've seen what can happen and how easily it can happen. Only takes 2 seconds to swing the sack around to the front.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| on which, @Perty, if I was the lifty, I'd be making that part of my defence... |
But is it a defence? There's no defence for the lifty ignoring the rule by not enforcing it.
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OTOH presumably the young lad (and I guess any adults skiing with him) knew the rule and chose to ignore it, so potentially culpable in the poor kids death?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@halfhand, but if it can be shown that this lifty was working as all the others did and not only in the resort, is that not a defence? I am not (thankfully) a lawyer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have only ever had a pack get trapped when I took it off. It is loose straps that are the issue. A fully fastened up pack is actually less of a problem as there is simply nothiing to get caught. I have a pretty filled up 18lt ABS bag that fits fine on every chairlift I have been on.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @halfhand, but if it can be shown that this lifty was working as all the others did and not only in the resort, is that not a defence? I am not (thankfully) a lawyer. |
I dunno; me neither.
Important thing to remember is a young lad lost his life, which is really sad 
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You know it makes sense.
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@halfhand, it is indeed.
But if lessons can be learned around negligence in terms of mandating no back packs, etc., then they should.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
But if lessons can be learned around negligence in terms of mandating no back packs, etc., then they should.
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+1
Unfortunately this was very harsh lesson for the boy and his family.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think how he was killed is abundantly clear. Why there wasn't a trip switch and what it took 4 mins to get to him ( no reverse process on the chair?) is less clear.
I've fallen victim to the trapped strap myself. Doesn't stop me wearing on the lift as the logistics on a crowded chair with the "bar slamdown posse" in Europe are worse.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Doesn't stop me wearing on the lift as the logistics on a crowded chair with the "bar slamdown posse" in Europe are worse.
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But isn't that attitude just as bad?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @halfhand, but if it can be shown that this lifty was working as all the others did and not only in the resort, is that not a defence? I am not (thankfully) a lawyer. |
Unfortunately I AM a lawyer, though not a personal injury lawyer. I was always rubbish at that as I tend to the "accidents happen", "you should have been looking where you were going", "there are so many rules these days no-one can be ars*d to follow them as it is now apparently reasonably foreseeable that a blind deaf, foreign, illiterate, drunk may blunder down the road and injure themselves on a pebble, so you should clear up the pebble and conduct hourly checks and put up notices in 7 languages, tannoy announcements and offer guides to ensure that no-one trips on a pebble".
I know that sounds terribly flippant, and it does appear in this case that the liftie was neglectful, though my reading is it that his lack of attention after the kid was caught up was the real problem. I'd forgive him for not chiding the child to remove his backpack...... (do parents? Often they do not and they usually know the rule just the same).
Backlash awaited....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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No backlash from me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Terribly terribly sad.
If a ski lift was a piece of equipment used in industry you'd have to go on training courses to ride on it, sign documents, gain certificates, have yearly refreshers etc. etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sounds to me like there was a huge delay between the boy getting hung up, and anyone getting to his aid. That is the crux of it. The lifite should have been at his post, and been responsive to cries for help. Which it doesn't sound like the case.
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@Perty, No backlash:) but have seen a liftie trying to implement the take your backpack off rule, skiers advance through the barriers, past the 2nd set of take your backpack off signs, he points at the backpacks still on backs, skiers ignore him sit down on lift, he stops lift, quietly explains rule, receives reply "don't be fxxin ridiculous done this for years nothings happened, people on chairs turning round giving liftie the evil eye, big queue behind now giving liftie the evil eye.....
Probably well easier to just sort of, at least selectively, ignore and switch the thing back on.
(Not saying that's what happened here of course).
Difficult to tell 100% from that report but the liftie in court appears to be the destination one only, so the departure one who could, in theory, have told the lad to take off the bag has not been pursued, although the company has.
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@Perty, No backlash:) but have seen a liftie trying to implement the take your backpack off rule, skiers advance through the barriers, past the 2nd set of take your backpack off signs, he points at the backpacks still on backs, skiers ignore him sit down on lift, he stops lift, quietly explains rule, receives reply "don't be fxxin ridiculous done this for years nothings happened, people on chairs turning round giving liftie the evil eye, big queue behind now giving liftie the evil eye.....
Probably well easier to just sort of, at least selectively, ignore and switch the thing back on.
(Not saying that's what happened here of course).
Difficult to tell 100% from that report but the liftie in court appears to be the destination one only, so the departure one who could, in theory, have told the lad to take off the bag has not been pursued, although the company has.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Well this tragic case has made me think twice about how I have my backpack when getting on a lift. Think I will swing it round the front from now on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
Terribly terribly sad.
If a ski lift was a piece of equipment used in industry you'd have to go on training courses to ride on it, sign documents, gain certificates, have yearly refreshers etc. etc. |
Indeed, in fact it's likely that the chair would have to stop to allow you to sit down, put a harness on and clip to something on the chair, before you could move off.
I have seen this story previously (it's effectively local news for me in Devon) and it has made me rethink wearing a bag, but I still prefer to wear it than take it off. One thing that I do now do is to feel around the bag and wiggle to make sure it's not stuck as the chair reaches the top of the lift. As others have said, the loose straps of a bag on the lap is something that I'm less keen on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@PeDaSp, not a bad idea but the buff says:-
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| Breaking Away in Around 4.5 lbs (2 kgs). |
I suspect an on-piste fall could generate that sort of force.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Gaza, I wonder exactly what happened, and how his backpack ended-up asphyxiating him. The straps would have had to have been around his neck to start with perhaps? So sad
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Yes - I don't quite understand it either. In my experience chest strap buckles just aren't strong enough to do this. I wonder if it was actually one of those weird single strap rucsacs that go across the body?
I hardly ever take my rucsac off on a lift. It is low profile and doesn't have dangling straps. If I get asked by a lifty I do remove it but that probably happens 1 in 100 rides. I suspect it will be more like 99 this season.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| PeDaSp wrote: |
@Gaza, I wonder exactly what happened, and how his backpack ended-up asphyxiating him. The straps would have had to have been around his neck to start with perhaps? So sad.
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If you're left hanging like that then I believe your head slowly drops (you basically pass out) and cuts off the airway. It's one of the reasons that whenever you have anyone wearing a harness for working at height in the construction industry, then you need a rescue plan for if they do fall. IIRC it's a very short amount of time before someone loses consciousness. The same principle applies on crucifixion, it isn't being nailed to the cross or even starvation that killed you, it was suffocation. Nasty stuff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| If you're left hanging like that then I believe your head slowly drops (you basically pass out) and cuts off the airway. It's one of the reasons that whenever you have anyone wearing a harness for working at height in the construction industry, then you need a rescue plan for if they do fall. IIRC it's a very short amount of time before someone loses consciousness. |
Yes, it's called suspension trauma. Note in particular that once the person is rescued then the standard first aid procedure of laying them down flat in the recovery position can kill them!. "But during rescue, it's common for a casualty to be laid on the ground. When this happens, all the stale blood rushes back into the rest of the body in one huge slug. It can damage the organs it passes through - most importantly the heart and kidneys. If a suspension trauma victim lies down, even for 20 seconds, they can die instantly of a heart attack or suffer multiple organ failure."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whoah! @Alastair Pink, what is the correct procedure then?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Doesn't sound like it was suspension trauma - the link indicated 'An otherwise-healthy person can lose consciousness within 10 minutes and then will be imminently at risk of death' - and sounds like this boy was dead in 4 mins i.e. actual strangulation?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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i believe you keep the casualty in a sat up position for at least 30mins so the blood can slowly be taken back around the body and the toxins etc can be worked out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@snow_badger, cool!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Doesn't sound like it was suspension trauma - the link indicated 'An otherwise-healthy person can lose consciousness within 10 minutes and then will be imminently at risk of death' - and sounds like this boy was dead in 4 mins i.e. actual strangulation? |
Yes I was referring to SnoodyMcFloode's post about the dangers for construction workers wearing a harness who have a fall. In the case of the boy on the skilift as you say it sounds like strangulation.
And snow_badger is right about the correct procedure to assist persons who have had suspension trauma.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Doesn't sound like it was suspension trauma - the link indicated 'An otherwise-healthy person can lose consciousness within 10 minutes and then will be imminently at risk of death' - and sounds like this boy was dead in 4 mins i.e. actual strangulation? |
Yes I was referring to SnoodyMcFloode's post about the dangers for construction workers wearing a harness who have a fall. In the case of the boy on the skilift as you say it sounds like strangulation. |
I suspect that, if it was indeed a strangulation, panic may well have been an issue. I know that if I was caught up then I'd certainly be thrashing around a bit, it must have been truly terrifying for a young lad.
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Is wearing a bag on every chair lift dangerous or is it just certain ones. I'm only rarely asked to take bag off (usually do anyway though).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 8611 wrote: |
| Is wearing a bag on every chair lift dangerous or is it just certain ones. I'm only rarely asked to take bag off (usually do anyway though). |
I think that there are two potential dangers/inconveniences with wearing backpacks on chairlifts:
1. If your backpack has dangling straps that could get caught on the chair as you dismount. If you ensure that this isn't the case then it's not a problem.
2. If your backpack is bulky then keeping it on your back means that you are pushed forward on the seat which makes closing the safety bar more difficult (or on some of the US chairlifts which don't have safety bars at all means that you are closer to the edge of the chair and falling off!  . That's why if I'm carrying a particularly bulky backpack I'll take it off unprompted and carry it in front of me on the chair.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
| Is wearing a bag on every chair lift dangerous or is it just certain ones. I'm only rarely asked to take bag off (usually do anyway though). |
I think that there are two potential dangers/inconveniences with wearing backpacks on chairlifts:
1. If your backpack has dangling straps that could get caught on the chair as you dismount. If you ensure that this isn't the case then it's not a problem.
2. If your backpack is bulky then keeping it on your back means that you are pushed forward on the seat which makes closing the safety bar more difficult (or on some of the US chairlifts which don't have safety bars at all means that you are closer to the edge of the chair and falling off! . That's why if I'm carrying a particularly bulky backpack I'll take it off unprompted and carry it in front of me on the chair. |
Isn't there also a big difference between the older slatted chair lifts and the more modern 'bucket' style. I would have thought you had much greater risk of getting caught in a slatted lift as more opportunity for straps and other bits to get caught
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