 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on from a question on another thread:
The question was, “why are air bags not deployed or sometimes reported as failed in an avalanche situation”?
Plus what type of practise can you do to make sure that you deploy when you need too.
The information below is not meant to be a definitive answer, I am sure there are others out there with more experience of using air bags than me.
As many of you know already, the instructions supplied with air bags tell you to deploy as soon as possible, at the very first sign of an avalanche, deploy.
OK I will try and not offend people too much but here goes:
Reasons for not deploying your air bag when you are in an avalanche (in no particular order)
1) I can out ski (board) this avalanche either to the side or out run it because I have seen it in the movies.
A) NO you can not; even the guys in the movies get caught. Deploy at the very first sign of avalanche. You can then still try and out ski the avalanche or ski out to the side of it.
2) Sheer panic and you forget all that you have learnt after 30 years skiing.
A) I am sure we can all understand this, and the more practise you can do the better.
3) I bought my airbag 4 years ago and I have not checked the canister or had it serviced since, I hope it works.
A) Service ABS bags every year, Snowpulse bags check your cylinder pressure gauge as often as possible.
4) I bought my airbag “ABS”, 1 year ago and I have not check the canister or had it serviced since, I hope it works.
A) There is no pressure gauge on an ABS so have it serviced and refilled every season.
5) Bad one I know, but we are going off piste with a guide and the guide supplied air bags, so we are safe? But no one told us we had to have the activation handle unhooked or unzipped. (sorry, I had this happen to me, it was some years ago when airbags where very new and I am sure it does not happen now)
6) I think its avalanching but I am not sure, refills are a pain, and if I deploy and its not a proper avalanche I will be embarrassed.
A)Deploy the air bag be safe, no one will think any the worse of you.
7) Its good practice if on lifts to fix the handle/loop back on to the backpack to avoid accidental activation. But can be easy to forget to un-fix the handle or unzip the loop.
A) Get into the habit of always un-fixing as soon as you get off the lift, even if you are skiing piste first.
As a separate note air bags come with a crotch strap, I have seen many off piste skiers wearing their airbags without this fixed properly, if you don’t and you get caught in an avalanche the airbag might well get ripped off you.
Practise:
If you can afford it, get more cylinders than you need and trial the bags, ABS always sell theirs with 2 so you can do this.
Snowpulse do not but you can get the cylinder refilled much easier and quicker.
The best practise/drill I find is to know where the release handle (ABS), release strap/loop (Snowpulse).
Drill, put your air bag on and stand in front of a mirror get used to reaching for the handle/strap for about 15 mins, it sounds a long time but its worth it, you at best want your brain to react as automatically as possible to the correct angle and height of the handle/strap. Seeing yourself in the mirror reinforces this as a more auto reflex, the brain remembers images really well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| livetoski wrote: |
4) I bought my airbag “ABS”, 1 year ago and I have not check the canister or had it serviced since, I hope it works.
A) There is no pressure gauge on an ABS so have it serviced and refilled every season.
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The weight is recorded on the canister though, so you can check that from time to time.
| livetoski wrote: |
As a separate note air bags come with a crotch strap, I have seen many off piste skiers wearing their airbags without this fixed properly, if you don’t and you get caught in an avalanche the airbag might well get ripped off you. |
I'd say most don't wear the crotch strap. When I was supplied with one last year by Arc Adventure in LA, the bag didn't even have the crotch strap supplied.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It strikes me that it would be a good idea to practice pulls in disorientating tumbling falls e.g. tomahawks or "turtles" where you are trying to work out where your skis are and get them under you. Hard to specifically simulate though and potentially adds to the danger in hardpackish terrain.
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livetoski, nice thread.
FWIW I don't use, or have connected the leg straps. I have spoken to many experts about this who all feel the same.
I am yet to pull the handle in anger. Even with heavy sluffing going off around me, but I agree with your sentiments: pull pull pull. I can't remember if it's MSP latest movie but there is footage of one of the pro scandis (Sverre?) pulling the handle on his pack and still skiing out the bottom, can't remember who it was. What's 20 euro Vs the cost of the pack?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| parlor wrote: |
livetoski, FWIW I don't use, or have connected the leg straps. I have spoken to many experts about this who all feel the same.
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why not? I can see why it would be useful and could help prevent the bag getting ripped off you...
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allanm, fatbob, parlor, kitenski, thanks this was a pretty difficult thread to start with the current avi risk in some parts of the Alps.
parlor, the leg straps are a must you have seen the the TGR film where the guy tomahawking looses his jacket and back pack? and that was just on a fall!
If there is another reason why not to use the leg straps, I would love to know.
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| livetoski wrote: |
| If there is another reason why not to use the leg straps, I would love to know. |
To me, it just makes the difference between the kit being acceptable to wear or not.
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| allanm wrote: |
| livetoski wrote: |
| If there is another reason why not to use the leg straps, I would love to know. |
To me, it just makes the difference between the kit being acceptable to wear or not. |
This ^. The last thing I need it more bits dangling down to get caught on chair lifts / trees / rocks.
Heaven forbid that I am ever caught in a slide but I know what's happening to me if I do: deploy pack, skis off, poles off, head between my knees (to kiss my ass goodbye). I've held on to worse things to survive.  My number one concern is, and always has been asphyxiation, I really feel that I would be so freaked out I'll be holding my head as hard as I can - preventing the pack from coming off but...
...in reality - I really don't think you could pull the chest or hip belts past my shoulders.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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parlor, would be interesting experiment to have someone (a very strong someone) stand on a ladder/wall above you and lift the pack up, and see what happens to your body!
livetoski, FWIW this is why I read snowheads, for threads like this, so please keep going 
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kitenski, I agree, with bindings set to 14 too... I've evaluated the risk and my own personal tolerance thereof.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kitenski,
| Quote: |
would be interesting experiment to have someone (a very strong someone) stand on a ladder/wall above you and lift the pack up, and see what happens to your body!
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If your arms are forced upwards vertically your shoulder width is dramatically reduced! enabling the backpack to come off more easily
The crotch strap might make your eyes water a little tho
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| livetoski wrote: |
kitenski,
| Quote: |
would be interesting experiment to have someone (a very strong someone) stand on a ladder/wall above you and lift the pack up, and see what happens to your body!
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If your arms are forced upwards vertically your shoulder width is dramatically reduced! enabling the backpack to come off more easily
The crotch strap might make your eyes water a little tho |
Not a fair test though as the snow will be bouyant to some degree.
I would also have though that instictively your arms will be in front (if conditions allow) of you so minimising the chances of the bag coming off.
TBO, I'd probably not bother wearing it nearly as much as I do, it if the straps are compulsary. It's all damage limitation anyway. Fact is I can wear my ABS bag as a pretty comfortable backpack all day with no extra faffing. I do take mine off on lifts though, after seeing one rather nasty accident.
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allanm, what was the nasty accident? I have heard of an accidental deployment on a lift before 
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You know it makes sense.
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| livetoski wrote: |
| allanm, what was the nasty accident? I have heard of an accidental deployment on a lift before |
Nothing to do with an air bag, just bag strap getting caught on a lift. Thinking about it, pretty sure it was just a normal smallish backpack, supported his weight no problem even with a broken arm. Was the 'plan bois' at LA IIRC.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I would be interested to know ... is there any kind of buckle, release mechanism on the crotch strap ?
I always take my pack off on lifts, and if there isn't some quick way of getting it off, I won't use the strap.
(Going round the top of the chairlift dangling off by my caught pack was very not cool !)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alan McGregor, Yes, that's what I was getting at, there's no 'quick release' with the crotch strap[s] that came with mine - would be a right faff on lifts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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livetoski, I have thought long and hard about the crotch straps - my posts above might not reflect that The bottom line for me is if I'm wizzing around lifts all day no way would I want to wear the straps. When I was in Europe I could nearly always keep my pack on during a chair lift, forget doing that in Canada! I have questioned whether I would use the straps in a more 'avalanche prone' area or where the risk is higher, after lots of thought I actually decided that if there was anytime that I thought to myself "I should be wearing the crotch strap here" it was the perfect time NOT to ski the route I was looking at.
I have been asked if I think having my ABS makes me take more risk. IMO it doesn't.
Could be a good business model for someone... retro-fit crotch straps to ABS, Snowpulse & BCA packs... that work!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Following on from that thought, if I had something permanently attached to my pants that I could just click in to the pack when I'm wearing it - that might work?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Isn't the crotch strap just belt and braces?....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| parlor wrote: |
| Following on from that thought, if I had something permanently attached to my pants that I could just click in to the pack when I'm wearing it - that might work? |
Do/would you wear an alpine harness regularly? Surely it'd be reasonably easy to clip/unclip the pack to that and not use the crotch strap . . . ? Stronger and less eye-watering too . . .
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parlor, I see your point totally, and also agree that people wearing airbags don't take any more risk than others.
allanm,
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Isn't the crotch strap just belt and braces?....
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it could well be part of the standards as well to pass as a safety device a little like the apline harness that ww166no, mentions
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I never use the leg strap on my snowpulse. It's too much of a pain getting on and off lifts. I'm pretty confident that if I tighten the waist strap so that it's very snug to the point of being uncomfortable, then the bag won't slip over my head. The waist strap can't get over my chest and arms. I've spent a bit of time testing this theory out while wearing the sack and doing all kinds of contortions which is why i'm pretty confident.
This may not be true of someone who's a bit thicker around the middle though.
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I've been wearing my snowpulse 30l pack on chairs in Engelberg for the last 7 days. I am not slim. I have found it no more difficult to wear on lifts than my heli pro. The groin strap adds no more than 5 seconds of faff. I am not sure what the problem here is. Seen dozens of people with abs and snowpulse bags here. Very few take them off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I've been wearing my snowpulse 30l pack on chairs in Engelberg for the last 7 days. I am not slim. I have found it no more difficult to wear on lifts than my heli pro. The groin strap adds no more than 5 seconds of faff. I am not sure what the problem here is. Seen dozens of people with abs and snowpulse bags here. Very few take them off. |
Have to agree with that, I only have a 10L snowpulse, but apart from crowded cable cars it's no trouble at all on the lifts.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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parlor, I know what you mean about the size of US lifts, they do seem a little inappropriate don't they?
Thank you so much for pointing out how monumentally uncool it is to wear a harness in the pub, in future I'll remove mine before crossing the threshold (though clearly somewhere where everyone can see me do so) . . .what was I thinking putting safety before credibility? My brain must've frozen solid due to me skiing with my helmet on the back of my head all these years . . . 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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parlor, I was thinking the same as you re. having the strap integrated into my snowboard trousers. Might have a look and see if I can bodge something (maybe even on the inside to avoid the nappy look!).
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK the reply back re crotch straps is (exact copy)
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| “This strap ensure that the airbag stay close to the head user. You should use it as soon as you are off piste. By the way the pectoral strap can injures the user if the between leg strap is not use and that the airbag pull you up” |
I would take this as meaning that if the crotch strap is not used or done up when caught in an avalanche could, mean that the chest strap would either dislocate your shoulders or worse your neck. After reading a couple of times, the strap ensures that the airbags stay close to the user's head.
Or any other thoughts!
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FAQ
