 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm sure this must have been asked but I can't find the answer.
In my, admittedly limited, experience I've found little consistency in piste grading between and even within resorts.
Is there a formula for deciding piste colour taking into account things like average gradient, maximum/minimum gradient, vertical height, width etc, or as a cynical friend reckons "The easiest 40% are graded green/blue however difficult they are, otherwise the resort wouldn't attract beginners, and that's what brings in most of the money in for lessons and hire."
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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tafflondon, if you do a search on "piste grading", tick to find "all terms" and also to search the whole post, not just title, you'll find loads - e.g. http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60320&highlight=piste+grading
you're right, there isn't much consistency between resorts, or between countries, or even within resorts. And a black run with nice snow can be much easier than a blue run with nasty snow.
It's just a very, very, rough guide to tell you that within one resort, and given equal snow and weather conditions, a black run will be harder than a red, a red harder than a blue and a blue harder than a green. But a black might just have one steep and difficult section, and red be moderately difficult for a very long way. Some greens are just tracks, quite narrow, often crowded, never much fun especially for beginner snowboarders - for whom a long flat green is a nightmare.
It all depends.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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tafflondon, I think your friend is right ... the"mix" has to be right to attract all levels of ability, so i don't think there is a set of objective criteria.
In our village there is a black run which is not too taxing; but the bottom section of the same hill, which is just as steep, often icier because it is in shade, and is narrower with less run off, is graded red because it leads to the lift pass office. Elsewhere there is a long, wide sweeping red which is really a blue in anyone's money.
I also agree with pam w, it is best to see the grades as a guide to relative difficulty within a resort. IMO you can't necessarily expect the reds in one resort to be the same level as those in another.
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pam w, is right it is just a guide. In Canada at least they are explicit about it and tell you that the grades are how difficult it is from that spot compared to the others. They also only have 3 ratings (then black diamond crazy stuff). So you know a black is going to be harder than blue and green is easiest. But you can do a blue that is fine one day then a couple of days later has not been bashed flat and you could find it is a mogul hell/heaven on the steepest bit as people all slow down at the same steep bit creating the moguls.
A local ski guide or instructor is the quickest way to find out or if you want specific resort info then you can post here as there will always be someone who has been there and can tell you what to avoid. The in depth info is quite amazing with people willing to share. As sanman says an icy red can be much harder than a newly pisted black. So it is very resort, weather and piste specific.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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tafflondon, Grooming is also taken into account. In the Three Valleys, for example, they aim to groom 100% of Greens, 80% of Blues, 50% of Reds and 20% of Blacks every night (this is a target, and may not reflect reality). From this, you can deduce that the average Black is groomed once in 5 days, and is therefore more likely to be mogulled on any given day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Very very different in some resorts. The marketing department of whatever ski area it is seem to decide what grading the runs have - they need a reasonable number of blues, greens, reds and blacks to make sure they don't lose bookings from people at whatever level.
Example - we skied in Andorra, and took a wrong turn on a run because they had graded it black. Not kidding, it was about 500m long and 50m wide, with a gradient similar to a "normal" blue. We came down it because we were looking for where the blue run turned off, and came down it at some speed. We got to the bottom and realised we'd just skied a black run accidentally. Try the same thing in Espace Killy or 3 Valleys, you would not be able to mistake the run for a blue. At the time we were barely capable of getting down most of the black runs in those resorts.
The US/Canadian system different to European as well.
Basically the answer is no. There is no standard formula, but the more difficult runs are usually agreed to be the steeper, narrower, icier runs in a resort, and possibly those that are pisted less often (if at all)
One thing we did find useful was a guide book we got, Mad Dog Guides, that had the red and black runs in a resort graded with a description - it had 1-3 stars depending on the difficulty and potential conditions, with info on what to expect. Useful thing, meant you knew when you were about to cruise an easy run vs fighting your way down a much more difficult one, both of which are graded the same.
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IMHO most people once they're past the 'beginner' phase of not-being-parallel-yet should view the piste map as a binary distinction between "black" and "not black".
And then about a skiing-fortnight later have a go at a black and realise there wasn't really anything to be scared of.
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I suspect Mr Technique is about right... but then blacks come in varying shades of grey, and being confronted with moguls as tall as I am was a bit of a shock...
I'm sure that practicality comes into it, e.g. some runs are graded higher than they are as the lifts out of the bottom cannot cope with the higher levels of traffic they would get if they were viewed as easier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One of the nice things I like about vail is the grooming reports, so you can see what they've done an plan accordingly for the level of skiing you fancy. I'm sure some european resorts may do this but none that i've seen.
Of course the 'letigous' peeps may well then decide to sue if they fall on an officially groomed run that has been significantly ski'd on and therefore no longer represents a groomed run so to speak...
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In the Meribel valley ( and probably others of the 3V as well) they write up which pistes have been freshly groomed on whiteboards at the bottom of some lifts, and they also print handouts. Nothing quite as much fun as a really steep and normally mogully black run that has just been pisted IMHO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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All ski runs are the same colour - white !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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All ski runs are the same colour - white !
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not at the moment they aren't 
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ski, I've seen a few red ones...
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You know it makes sense.
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then blacks come in varying shades of grey, and being confronted with moguls as tall as I am was a bit of a shock...
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very true. The difference between the run just before it's pisted, and just after, is probably greater than the average difference between a blue and a red.
I skied some blue runs a couple of weeks ago which were harder than several of the black runs on the same day, because they were lower, icy, patchy, snow and several tight bends. I had to really take care, go round the corners very carefully and not pick up speed. The blacks were much steeper, and the snow was very hard, but they were also wider, completely covered in snow, and with no corners.
It really doesn't do to obsess about colours - but neither is it wise to think that after "getting down" a couple of blacks you can sensibly go and tackle any of them, anywhere.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The biggest trouble I've had with the grading is the fear it can give nervy intermediates - if they've skied an icy, cut up blue at the end of the day it can put them off a red for the rest of the week.
One thing that I have seen that has helped though is the Mad Dog ski guides which give a three star grading within the grading for all the runs in the resort that the guide covers, along with a bit of a write up. Can happilly give that to my nervy intermediates and they'll wander off and ski away on the 1 star reds and avoid the blues that are often chopped up and rated higher
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Poster: A snowHead
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Isn't there some rule of thumb in France - if it is the only way to ski to a food/drink place at the bottom then it will be designated a blue or green.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isn't there some rule of thumb in France - if it is the only way to ski to a food/drink place at the bottom then it will be designated a blue or green.
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No.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, it's said that a tricky black run in Meribel (I've forgotten its name) was re-designated to red, because it had some chalets alongside it, and the redesignation was necessary to maintain their value as ski-in-ski-out properties. This story is told, as much as anything, as an example of the corruption that is rife in the planning process in France. I've no idea whether there's any foundation to it, but I have heard the tale more than once.
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Well I can think immediately of one restaurant (the best one in our area, actually) which is at the bottom of a red run. That's why I said there was no such rule. What's more, it's not a difficult red - they've given a "coup de bull" at one or two points which were a bit tricky. So it could be regraded to blue, but it hasn't been.
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