 Poster: A snowHead
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We had a beginner skier in our group last week in les arcs.
He had two goes on a dry slope in the uk, but apart from that - no previous experience.
We are a group of fairly experienced boarders, who have little to comment on his sking. He got no lessons in the alps, and basically tried his best to follow us around the mountains. We never mentioned to him that skiing is easy or hard, we just warned him of tricky bits, and to take it easy... he just got on with it.
5th day he could ride soft blacks.
6th day he swapped hire skies for powder skis from advise in a lift queue after a dump.
Basically followed us off piste (yes he borrowed ava gear), fell twice, but got on with it.
On day 7 he was zooming round the trees in vallandry in 20cms if fresh. We didnt really have any truly "deep and steep". But he rode some knee deep off piste steeps with no trouble.
He was knackered at the end of the week, but basically there wasn't anywhere on piste in les arcs he could not get down safely after 6 or 7 days.
He had no lessons. The only thing he was shown (by an ex-skier in the group) was snowplough stops after having a bit of trouble getting off the lifts and his din settings increased a bit as he lost skis in powder a couple of times (i guess they were on beginner settings).
To a boarder's eyes his technique was far from the worst on the hill.
He was in early 40s so not some teenager!
This would be fairly typical learning curve to a snowboarder (maybe a bit quicker than average) and its got us thinking that maybe you guys (skiers) might get yourself a bit to wrapped up in lessons and tempering the learning curve?
Its not an enigma as ive seen this a couple of times over the years. Basically , not being told that sking is harder or easier than boarding and just keeping up, skiers can hit reds and easy blacks at the end of the first week. I saw this with my brother Allanm a few years back. He had a few lessons in the uk on dry slopes before first trip, but was doing reds pretty much on the first day on the real stuff (infact his first run down was an icey red (sorry allan  ))
So.. basically, IMHO maybe novice skiers should not get too wrapped up in perfecting technique to the nth degree and just get out an ski round the mountain, much like us boarders.
Whats the worst than can happen
tux
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| tuxpoo wrote: |
| Whats the worst than can happen |
You can develop bad habits which will hold you back and frustrate your skiing by limiting what you can do.
But, it's a holiday so get out there and enjoy it. Providing you're not crashing in to anyone does it really matter? There are some people who naturally develop effective technique by watching others or getting informal instruction from their mates. I've not seen many people like that, but they do exist. What I see a lot of, and I include myself in this category, is experienced skiers who have not developed good fundamental skills and eventually discover than throwing yourself down the mountain and monstering your turns begins to fail when conditions get 'interesting'. It's taken me a lot of effort to address my lack of good fundamental technique, work which is definitely "in progress".
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| tuxpoo wrote: |
| Its not an enigma as ive seen this a couple of times over the years. Basically , not being told that sking is harder or easier than boarding and just keeping up, skiers can hit reds and easy blacks at the end of the first week. |
Yep, they can, and I've seen this a few times as well (girlfriend and brother both skiing black runs competently within 1 week). Your mate went with a sense of positivity and fortitude by the sound of it, which is all that matters.
People that lack those characteristics will still struggle though, so your observation can't be made to be generally true. A nervy, low self esteem person will still be on the greens 4 weeks later.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just as a general observation, I think it's unfortunate that too often skiers/snowboarders define progress by the colour of piste they can get down. You can get down a black by a combination of side-slipping, traversing and making snowplough turns. You've got down it, but I'd say you survived it rather than skied it. That fact that it's survival skiing will, for most people, contribute to bad habits not good ones.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Just as a general observation, I think it's unfortunate that too often skiers/snowboarders define progress by the colour of piste they can get down. You can get down a black by a combination of side-slipping, traversing and making snowplough turns. You've got down it, but I'd say you survived it rather than skied it. That fact that it's survival skiing will, for most people, contribute to bad habits not good ones. |
As a recreational holiday skier the difference between "I have to limit myself to blues and below" and "I can get around on anything on-piste with relative impunity" constitutes enormous progress. Not from the perspective of being technically superior or skiing with precision/finesse, but from the point of view of being able to have a really great holiday.
I agree with you though.
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| As a recreational holiday skier the difference between "I have to limit myself to blues and below" and "I can get around on anything on-piste with relative impunity" constitutes enormous progress. Not from the perspective of being technically superior or skiing with precision/finesse, but from the point of view of being able to have a really great holiday. |
But if the technique used to make that progress to steeper terrain involves hauling the skis around by swinging their shoulders that's not going to serve them well if they want to make linked short radius turns, in bumps for example or down a narrow couloir. And if they get used to making 'Z' shaped turns that's really going to hold them back when trying to ski in deep snow. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, or say that the only way to develop good technique is to have rigorous and extensive instruction, but IMO for most people there is a considerable risk that measuring their progress by the colour of the piste they can get down is storing up frustrations for the future if they have ambitions to ski all the mountain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yep, two years ago was on a group trip to les Menuires that included a complete beginner (bloke, late 30s, sporty sunday football type). He decided that skiing can't be that difficult and ignored all suggestions of lessons. I don't know exactly how he got started because I was elsewhere but, mid of day 2 he followed us over the top and down into Meribel (red?). Sure he went from disaster to disaster but just kept getting up and learning on the job. The falling got less, the speed and control increased and he basically cracked it. Day 3 and after a few tips about posture and an explanation of how a ski works he began to look no different from your regular "intermediate" skier. Some people just have the right set of natural skills.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mr Technique wrote: |
| As a recreational holiday skier the difference between "I have to limit myself to blues and below" and "I can get around on anything on-piste with relative impunity" constitutes enormous progress. Not from the perspective of being technically superior or skiing with precision/finesse, but from the point of view of being able to have a really great holiday. |
But if the technique used to make that progress to steeper terrain involves hauling the skis around by swinging their shoulders that's not going to serve them well if they want to make linked short radius turns, in bumps for example or down a narrow couloir. And if they get used to making 'Z' shaped turns that's really going to hold them back when trying to ski in deep snow. I'm not trying to be a killjoy, or say that the only way to develop good technique is to have rigorous and extensive instruction, but IMO for most people there is a considerable risk that measuring their progress by the colour of the piste they can get down is storing up frustrations for the future if they have ambitions to ski all the mountain. |
I agree if you are embarking on a life long affair with sking, doing seasons or weeks on end sking deep and steep then good technique helps.
But for the 1 week a year, i think you got to grab the bull by the horns, ignore the colour of the poles and get on with it.
I Had a friend take his wife (skier) down a black piste without pointing it out to her. She got down over the hardest steeps fine, infact he says with quite some grace. Almost at the end she notice the black piste poles and it dawned on her she was on a black!!!... she freaked! could hardly turn, even tho the last section was barely red in gradient!
Tux
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I remember my first red, taken down by my instructor after about 3/4 days. She pointed at the poles and said well done. We said "what do you mean?" Nobody had told us that the pole colours changed according to the difficulty of a run...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Well I think lessons are a must but I do believe that a positive mindset is hugely important, if you think you can you probably will whereas thinking you can't tends to have a detremental effect on technique. The biggest difference for me over the past 3 years has been in my head, I now think I can rather than can't and it's had a major impact on my skiing
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| tuxpoo wrote: |
I agree if you are embarking on a life long affair with sking, doing seasons or weeks on end sking deep and steep then good technique helps.
But for the 1 week a year, i think you got to grab the bull by the horns, ignore the colour of the poles and get on with it. |
Good technique doesn't help the one week a year skier 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I Had a friend take his wife (skier) down a black piste without pointing it out to her. She got down over the hardest steeps fine, infact he says with quite some grace. Almost at the end she notice the black piste poles and it dawned on her she was on a black!!!... she freaked! could hardly turn, even tho the last section was barely red in gradient!
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tuxpoo, had very similar scenario with Mrs Swiller. Skiing in a near-whiteout in Chamonix, she was hot on my tails all day. Following day, in clear vis, she could see what she had been skiing down and suddenly it wasn't that easy anymore. Bless. Over Christmas I took her down the Hahnemkann in kitzbuhel - now, as anyone knows, the tough parts of the race course are normally roped off and the "tourist" path down is a piece of pee, but still, the very mention of the H word altered her abilty to ski relaxed and confident. Complicated little things aren't they (duck)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think it depends a lot on the individual and their nervousness. My first week skiing was in 1977 at the age of 9. I was definitely cruising red runs at the end of my first week. However, I've just been to Scheffau with my best friend who is a beginner (she had had 8 hours of lessons in a fridge beforehand) and she was able to link snowplough turns on the nursery slope after three days (and more lessons) but was extremely nervous and didn't feel confident to tackle a blue run. I think further lessons are the only way she would progress further (although I doubt she will continue skiing).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm with Rob - I'm a good example of what he means....
My first week's skiing (with a little tuition) culminated in skiing a selection of blue & red runs above Morzine. My next 3 weeks' included skiing lots of blue & red runs around Les Arcs, Val Meinier & Val Cenis - it was dead easy and I loved it. I even tackled a black which was pretty heavily mogulled. I was well chuffed.
Then, week 5 was in Wengen and all was well until it snowed heavily on about day 3 - and that was it for me; I just hadn't a clue how to deal with fresh snow. The shoulder-throwing, tail-tossing Z-turns which had served me perfectly well on prepared pistes just tripped me up over & over again. My confidence evaporated and I suddenly hated it. The only way back was to seek some proper tuition and hope to learn some basic skills which would serve me better - still a work in progress.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
FTFY  |
Thanks. I should add a caveat that other ski instructors are also available...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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tuxpoo, You might be on to something. you're saying your friend was following a group of snowboarders. Now, snowboarders can't make Z turns, so if he was trying to follow your lines and was fearless enough, he might have developed round linked turns. Not bad. Maybe ski instructors should adopt the "follow me" teaching style, but only if they're on snowboards 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| ... snowboarders can't make Z turns ... |
I see loads that do. Big swing of the back foot, then settle on to the new edge which follows a line which is more straight than curved.
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tuxpoo, I think I agree with you to a certain extent.
A couple of years ago my mate came away with a few of us (he basically 'crashed' a work conference). His experience of skiing was over 10 years previous with college in Slovakia where he said the instruction was more or less non-existent and the skiing involved going up the same hill and down again.
We were skiing reds in the main with some blues and he basically just had to follow us. He did, a bit hesitant on the first day but by the second he was coping very well and repeatedly going down the boarder cross run. He's now a far better skier than I am and he's only skied a week and a half! He does say that being told to follow us around the mountain helped him enormously. I hate him! 
The flip side of this is that on a few work trips some near beginers have really struggled following us on blue runs (quite easy ones).
So, I guess it just depends on the person.
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| tuxpoo, You might be on to something. you're saying your friend was following a group of snowboarders. Now, snowboarders can't make Z turns, so if he was trying to follow your lines and was fearless enough, he might have developed round linked turns. Not bad. Maybe ski instructors should adopt the "follow me" teaching style, but only if they're on snowboards |
Yes he was following and emulating us. This includes the powder we had (20-30cms). He was parallel turning from day one. Infact he didnt really get snowploughs propely. I would not quite say he was carving but certainly more curve than skid.
Just want to say we never said a thing about any difference between groomed piste and powder. He was lucky his first experience of fresh powder was on a red piste, first off lift , 10 -15 cms layed after it was groomed.
Tux
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tuxpoo, excellent post, and I agree with much of what you say. Cerob@rar, agree on the piste grading and obsession there in.
Most of the good skiers learnt by having a "go anywhere" attitude and following better or more advanced skiers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Some people need lessons some people don't....simple. I don't agree with the "must have lessons" or the "no one needs lessons" its all down to the individual what ever the sport. I'm also a fan of MTFU and get on with it!
I know loads of people that have become great skiers without lessons. I also know people who can't put boots on without lessons.
I do however feel most riders (boarders and skiers) that are at the top of the game have at some point hit a plato where they have needed advice or lessons to break through the wall.
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tuxpoo, PS great thread mate. VERY good points.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What did he do to you
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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tiffin, kicked me in the ar5e for calling him plato instead of plateau 
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Lessons have their place as in any sport but practice is the key.
as for all this i did a black run on my first day. There is a big difference between skiing down a run and getting down a run,
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You know it makes sense.
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Yep - mental attitude is worth a couple of week's of lessons - at least.
Had same experience as OP with some mates who just strapped on some boards, we took them to the top of the hill and left them to it. By Day 3 they were following the rest of the group who had been skiing for years. Not necessarily with style, mind but they sure got down the hill. Within a couple of weeks there was no difference adn there followed many ski adventures for all concerned. They were avid surfers though so were also very fit and agile and must have had some basic balance conciousness.
Also agree that people get hung up on the colour/grading of the run they are doing without doing a direct comparison with the actual terrain in front of them and their ability. The run grading can blinker and/or frighten a lot of people unnecessarily.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was showing my much younger brother round the mountain and he had previously got it into his head that he couldn't do red runs and point blank refused to try one. This was annoying as the mountian linked up best with red runs so at the top of each one lied to him and said we were going down a blue. By the time we'd got a little way down he would notice the pole colour, get pissed off, and then ski the rest of the way down. This happened several times and then he admitted that, yes, red runs weren't really that much harder than blue ones and that he enjoyed them
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A female instructor told me that men learn quicker because they don't see the dangers that are there and women see dangers that aren't.
Every sport requires different levels of three basic assets
1/ Skill
2/ Fitness / stamina / strength (maybe strength is a fourth asset)
3/ Bottle, AKA confidence
Something like snooker is probably about 99% skill, sprinting 99% fitness etc but having plenty of 1/ and 2/ are worth diddly squat in skiing if you dont have any 3/
At school I was useless at all sports as I had nowt much in the way of 1 and 2 but have progressed to a level 9/10 skier as I started with an overdose of 3 and worked on 1 and 2 over the years, fortunately I have bones like an ox and a lot of luck that has got me through the inevitable spectacular crashes with only minor injuries, the only other person I have injured was my brother after he skied into one of my jetisoned skis (the scars are hidden by wrinkles now) his own fault for not being in front of me in the race we were having.
How each individual skier progresses will depend on their helpings of the basic assets, some are there naturally, others can be gained with experience and work (or therapy!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PS mental attitude can be worth a lifetime of lessons!!
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The emphasis has to be upon skill acquisition, built upon incrementally and consolidated. It takes hard work, dedication, practice, a willingness to listen and try things out. Just like dieting, there are few miracles in skiing. I hear all the time stories of, 'my mate got down this', 'my mate skied the Swiss Wall', etc, but this totally misses the point. Unfortunately it's a typical male approach to the sport where bravado is confused with ability and, dare I say, humility.
Find a blue slope, develop an arcing technique, work upon movement and angulation, build confidence and skill and work gradually. I have to say I don't bother with silly slopes anymore with hundreds of people struggling down the Chavanette in a stiff-as-a-poker position yelling, 'I've done it!'. What's the point? In time, the steeps will come, if you want them, and the skill will allow you to get down in control (hence safely).
Enjoy.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some people just "get it"; last year I had a girl/young lady turn up for a beginner lesson; she daced and played sport at a fairly high level and was used to taking instruction.
1st run - spot on glide
2rd run - plough glide with good posture
3rd run - turns of about 10m radius
4th run - nice wide turns
5th - up the lift and a nice plough down the main slope
6th - plough parellel
7th - PP from the top
8th - basic parellel
Heaven of a lesson. She then came back to practice very hard to get to the "automatic stage".
Sometimes you think BASI have sent an instructor to check up on you!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| scooby_simon wrote: |
| Sometimes you think BASI have sent an instructor to check up on you! |
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| Quote: |
I have to say I don't bother with silly slopes anymore with hundreds of people struggling down the Chavanette in a stiff-as-a-poker position yelling, 'I've done it!'. What's the point? In time, the steeps will come, if you want them, and the skill will allow you to get down in control (hence safely).
Enjoy.
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But that's exactly what so many of us do enjoy, scaring ourselves, getting the adrenalin rush, skiing at and sometimes beyond our limits, moving on to the red run as soon as I can survive a blue run has brought me on much quicker than mastering the blues before moving on.
Yes there are many that hate being on the steep runs and only do it to impress their friends, yes they are the fools but I, and many others do the silly runs because we love it and always have, even when I was a cr** skier.
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There's a difference between average piste skiing plus off-piste in good powder and skiing in variable snow or in highly technical terrain. Sounds like the guy made some really good progress and I think a lot of people have touched on the different things that probably helped (confidence and a bit of natural ability go a long way IMO). Getting out and enjoying skiing is at least as important as having good ski technique. Finding a good skier, who is willing to give pointers to ski with will help a lot with the latter. Lessons are also good but I'd try to avoid getting sucked too far into worrying about having 'textbook' technique. A bit of flair in ski style is always good.
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