 Poster: A snowHead
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My Niece is going on a school trip at half term. She is 18, in the upper sixth and this will be her 4th week. She is comfortable on reds and blues and has a love of moguls! However, the school states that because of insurance issues she is not allowed to ski without adult supervision.
Often, after a lesson, she is in a group of 10 with a teacher (not an instructor) when faced with a few route-options which all converge at a point lower down. The teacher, quite rightly, will always take the route favoured by the weakest skier and will not allow the stronger skiers to take different routes.
If she, and her friends (all 1 took out independent insurance would this bypass the school's objections?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For some reason the number eight brings up a smiley from my keyboard.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jzBun, school trips are maybe best for kids who don't otherwise ski, and wouldn't have a chance to go with family. My son-in-law has run quite a lot and no, the kids weren't allowed to ski without adult supervision. Fair enough, I think. If "separately insured" kids failed to turn up at the hotel at the end of the day, who do you think would be responsible for going out and trying to find them?
I can sympathise with competent 18 year olds being treated like young kids - but then why are they going on a school trip? They could go on their own - maybe with UCPA.
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jzBun, I think that 18 year old cool smilie is rather good!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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She's 18 - tell them to sod off...
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My daughter has decided it's not worth going on her school trip next year, she will be 15 with about 15 weeks under her belt. She suspects she'll just get a few hours a day of pretty tame skiing.
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| Quote: |
If she, and her friends (all 1Cool took out independent insurance would this bypass the school's objections?
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Doubt it. If she and her mates aren't prepared to accept the school's rules, why don't they sack it off and book their own trip instead?
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Colin B, Same here, my son Mounta1nGoat had only 6 or 7 weeks under his belt but declined to go on a school trip last year as it would be a bit tame or lame.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No chance of skiing independently from the experience of my two.
My daughter is off to Zell am Zee at half term. She is cautious but highly competent skiing all reds and less hard core blacks.
They will get 6 days of lessons (2x3hrs per day) split by standard but have been told no free skiing. I'm not surprised really.
Tempting though it may be for an 18 year old to tell them where to stick it I imagine the result would be a sending home. How about a guide for a couple of hours? If you've spent 800 quid already an extra few Euros each between 4 is peanuts!
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| jzBun wrote: |
| My Niece is going on a school trip at half term. She is 18, ... the school states that because of insurance issues she is not allowed to ski without adult supervision. |
Surely - at 18, she and her friends are adults and able to supervise themselves and each other 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Surely - at 18, she and her friends are adults and able to supervise themselves and each other
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Yes, so they can do an independent trip. If the parents aren't prepared to let them do that, they can hardly expect to "pick and choose" which aspects of the school's supervisory rules their kids have to abide by.
Can you imagine? It's hard enough running school trips without some stroppy madam saying "I'm 18, sir, I can do whatever I want so you can just bog off; I'm off to do a bit of off piste with my mates and there's nothing you can do to stop me. "
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jzBun, If she is 18 and has here own private insurance of course she'll be covered! That isn't the issue though, it's what she'll allowed to do by the teachers!
At 18 years she should be looking at going on her own hols.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Surely - at 18, she and her friends are adults and able to supervise themselves and each other
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Yes, so they can do an independent trip. If the parents aren't prepared to let them do that, they can hardly expect to "pick and choose" which aspects of the school's supervisory rules their kids have to abide by.
Can you imagine? It's hard enough running school trips without some stroppy madam saying "I'm 18, sir, I can do whatever I want so you can just bog off; I'm off to do a bit of off piste with my mates and there's nothing you can do to stop me. " |
But they aren't doing an independant trip are they and being 18, it is perfectly reasonable to question the boundaries being imposed upon them.
If the school says they should be supervised by an adult, then they will be supervised by an adult if they ski together. What part of the school's supervisory rules are you suggesting they are not abiding by (given the limited information that we have been supplied with here)?
The question in the OP related to not being limited to taking the least hard route down a slope, not going off-piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
jzBun, If she is 18 and has here own private insurance of course she'll be covered! That isn't the issue though, it's what she'll allowed to do by the teachers!
At 18 years she should be looking at going on her own hols. |
Completely agree with what you say about doing what the teachers ask, however I would imagine it fairly easy for an 18 year old to get their parents to fund a school ski trip whereas I would expect it to be very unlikely that an 18 year old could get their parents to fund an independant trip with their mates.
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Poster: A snowHead
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jzBun, it is a supervised school trip and rules will be in place, but the reality is that after a day or so I am sure the teacher will be flexible when necessary after assessing the kids because it is almost impossible to keep a group together every minute of the day on the slopes. Confucius says sometimes it is best to go with the flow and bend with the wind like the great bamboo rather than be like a rigid tree and get blown over !!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, if something went wrong can you imagine the grief that would cascade on to the school and the teachers running the trip? I'd hate to be placed in that teacher's position where a reasonable request by an 18 year old pupil is subject to so much professional risk.
When you sign up for a school ski trip you sign up for a full package of things, including supervised skiing. If you don't want the package sign up for something else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, what defines "adult supervised skiing"?
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Ray Zorro, school trip does 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| rob@rar, what defines "adult supervised skiing"? |
In a legal sense I have no idea. In an education sense I'm pretty certain that professional bodies, governors, headteachers, parents and public opinion would not accept 18 year old pupils supervising each other as "adult supervised skiing" in the context of a school ski trip. A tragic accident on a school trip can ruin a teacher's career (as well as the personal anguish of seeing something terrible happen to a child that you have temporarily in your care). Letting pupils, including those over 18, ski unsupervised has the potential to make a tragic situation significantly worse in terms of the careers of the teachers involved. Is it reasonable to put the teachers in that kind of situation?
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My limited knowledge of school trips is that "supervised" means supervised by a ski instructor not even by teachers.
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| DJL wrote: |
| How about a guide for a couple of hours? If you've spent 800 quid already an extra few Euros each between 4 is peanuts! |
A day with a guide will cost about €350 - between 4 that is about £73 each. Hardly peanuts. Per hour, lessons and guiding cost about the same.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 11-01-11 10:34; edited 1 time in total
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i thought this little statement taken from a well known school ski trip operators website may shed light on the question.
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As the person responsible for the well-being and safety of a group of school children during their tour, you, the party leader, have to feel completely confident that the operator with whom you are dealing shares your sense of responsibility and strives to set and maintain the highest possible standards.
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in other words, the party leader (teacher in this case) is the responsible person. As rob@rar, indicates if the worst happens you can be assured that the public and media will go for the reponsible person. We have all seen it happen time and time again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The OP talks of skiing different "routes" which I (and others obviously) have taken to mean taking different pistes and meeting up later rather than simply choosing a different way down the same piste. If you have students on a different piste, they are certainly not being supervised; if they are given the freedom on the same piste to choose their own route and are in sight of the teacher/instructor they are being supervised. To take that slightly further, the latter is a practice to be encouraged and one I frequently have used in instructing youngsters. You are teaching more than technique: you are teaching how to choose a route and aiming to develop an independent, safe skier. You do it progressively and according to your assessment of the abllity, age and general reliabilty of the group and you never surrender control. But to say to some students in your group, you can take run 15 while we take run 16 and we will meet at the bottom is totally different and I cannot imagine any school party leader allowing that no matter the age of the students. It was a strict rule of the authorities I have worked in that students in a school party could only ski outwith lesson time with a teacher and further, a teacher holding a Ski Leader qualification. It's not just a mattter of the individual's insurance in terms of an accident, but of liability. Personal insurance would cover medical costs etc but a parent might additionally sue on the grounds of negligence if the student were not adequately supervised and so the school/local authority must be mindful of that.
Of course, 18 year olds could just tell the staff to sod off or, more moderately, "question" the boundaries being imposed on them. But, as has been pointed out there would be consequences. For the one who tellls staff to sod off and skis off, that would be the last skiing he/she should be doing that week. Polite questioning of the boundaries imposed should meet with the equally polte answer, "These are the boundaries and you knew them when you signed on for the trip". That is really the point. A school trip has its own terms and conditions. The time to question the boundaries is at the time the student decides whether to go on the trip or not.
My answer to your question then,jzBun, is independent insurance would not make any difference, If the school insists as part of its taking on the responsibility for your 18year old that there is no independent skiing outwith adult supervision, then that's the end of the story. But do you know that is the case? You lose nothing by speaking to the Headteacher and Party Leader and asking if it is possible to allow unsupervised skiing for the seniors given adequate insurance and some form of parental disclaimer. As a former headteacher I know my answer would have been no, but the question is better put to the school than left unanswered.
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Back in the day my brother accompanied a school trip as a U6 former. He not only was allowed, as the most competent skier among all adults to "guide" the highest ability kids but also allowed to drink in the teacher's informal bar room. I suspect times have changed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, indeed - 'back in the day' is the important phrase here.
When I were a lad...
14,15,16 we would go off for an hour or so as a group of 4 or 5 between supervised morning lessons and afternoon lessons on whatever and wherever pistes were open. Didn't think twice about it, and I'm sure the adults didn't either. Were they less 'responsible' than their modern couterparts? No, no and thrice no. They just didn't have so much panic and red-tape crap thown at them
Unfortunately, meeja, ambulance chasers and saftey elves now make it impossible for school teachers or any other adult with "responsibility" to even contemplate the horror of allowing young adults or children to grow up. Such is the price we pay for progress.
So I concur with what the others on the thread have said - School's trip? School's rules.
Whether those rules are 'fair' is not up for debate.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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My son's school trip the good skiers (and he was already BASI 1) could just do their own thing all day (building jumps off piste etc).
The trip was for Upper 5th and 6th form only.
Independent school that gave kids a lot of individual responsibility in the normal course of events.
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Snowball,
A couple of hours was the suggestion. On a schhol trip there is bound to be lessons all morning so I wa effectively suggesting a private lesson for the top few skiers insteead od skiing with teacher. That wouldn't be Euro 350.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
The time to question the boundaries is at the time the student decides whether to go on the trip or not.
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+1
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This is a joke post  it has got to be a joke, if its not then i suggest you do a little research on just how much risk assesment and paperwork goes into a school skiing trip.
If you want her to take her own risks and ski her own lines then let her book her own holiday she clearly needs no supervision at all, so why go with school, afterall school trips are often more expensive. Oh thats right they do need supervision afterall as they are school kids.
As for those suggesting that she tells the staff to sod off.....hmmm i suggest you try and manage a school trip yourselves sometime.
Insurance may cover costs of medical bills etc, it does not remove duty of care or liability from the teachers who have kindly offered to take the kids in the first place. The very last thing these techers need is stroppy parents ranting on about the rights of their kids based on their own assesments of their darlings skiing ability.
by all means proceed to convince them to ignore the schools rules and boundaries, after all i bet the headteacher is just looking for a reason to stop having skiing trips (like a lot of schools allready have, its just not worth the risks)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| JimW wrote: |
fatbob, indeed - 'back in the day' is the important phrase here.
When I were a lad...
14,15,16 we would go off for an hour or so as a group of 4 or 5 between supervised morning lessons and afternoon lessons on whatever and wherever pistes were open. Didn't think twice about it, and I'm sure the adults didn't either. Were they less 'responsible' than their modern couterparts? No, no and thrice no. . |
Yes and thrice yes. A major factor in tightening up on matters like these has been the fatal accidents that have occurred because of a inadequate planning and supervision of hazardous activities. It's not red-tape crap: don't allow the absurd paper exercise that seems to go with risk assessment "these days" to obscure the need for careful risk assessment and consequent planning, rule-making and control. Sadly young people's lives have been lost in the process of making things safer.
And even now, things can go wrong:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/may/27/cadet-death-army-errors
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Much as I said above, kevindonkleywood, except
| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| This is a joke post...........The very last thing these techers need is stroppy parents ranting on about the rights of their kids based on their own assesments of their darlings skiing ability. |
The OP asks a genuine question looking for, I expect, helpful answers. There is absolutely nothing in it to justify this kind of inference which, I fear, can lead to people being reluctant to ask questions in the forum for fear of being ridiculed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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While I don't doubt the OP's sencerity, kevindonkleywood, I'm with you in sentiment. Group of 18 y.o. on holiday are not going to want to be under the same restrictions as 12y.o's - time to strike out on your own IMHO, take the money that'd been spent on the school trip and plan your OWN trip with your own responsibility. You'll have a damn sight more fun too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
As for those suggesting that she tells the staff to sod off.....hmmm i suggest you try and manage a school trip yourselves sometime.
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oh for goodness' sake, kevindonkleywood, read the posts properly. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ccl, You are probably right that my tone was a little harsh for which I apologise unreservadly but I am genuinely not sure what the expected response was?
Maybe, having been a school govenor for the last six years has made me jaded and less respectfull of 'parent choice' than i should be. I also apreciate that th OP is not the girls parent. I have also seen more and more schools ditching the traditional skiing trips because (amonst other things) of just such unrealistic expectations of what can be permitted.
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kevindonkleywood, Yes, actually I thought bertie bassett was way out of line too - sorry! But the majority of the posts (including mine imagining some hoity toity madam telling the staff to sod off) are firmly of the view that you either go with the school's rules, or go and do your own thing.
As for parents being willing to pay for a school trip but not an independent trip, I agree that's nonsense. Independent trips need not be any more expensive.
And anyone who thinks a gang of independent minded 18 year olds who fancy their skiing prowess is not going to be venturing off piste is naive, to put it no more strongly.
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AS she cant ski off on her own I would suggest she resort to other privledges enjoyed by those 18+, namely boozing until the wee hours.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I must admit I don't know the answer to the following and when I went on a school trip at 18 I went along with what the teachers asked of us without question. However, where does being an adult and able to make your own decisions start? It makes me wonder if there is not a very blurred line when you are 18 or older and still at school or college. Legally at 18 why does a school still have legal responsibility for you when it is then your choice to still be there? It's something I have never considered before, does anyone know the answer? The answer obviously is the reason behind the OP so might be worth considering.
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FAQ
I know of a couple of brothers who went on the school trip a few years back. They are very good skiers but 'pretended' to be less experienced in order to ski with their friends, including ski school 
no idea why im being so rude to everyone today......sorry 
