 Poster: A snowHead
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First post so go easy on me 
How essential a technique is the plough to modern skiing?..
Bit more background:
Middle of last year i agreed to go on a ski holiday to morzine this march.. having never skiied in my life ive had some group lessons (beginner and intermediate) at chillfactore in manchester. and ive since had 12ish further hours on the main slope.. the most part i can get to the bottom without incedent, i can make full but probably messy "parralel-ish" turns across the slope. ive probably got into bad habits so ill be getting some lessons while away, hoping that a bigger gentler slope will afford me more thinking time to improve turns and add a bit of precision.
Now the one thing that was holding me back during the lessons was controlling speed using the plough because i simply struggled to apply pressure to the inside of the skis. with my legs together, my knees are naturally angled inwards slightly.. and im also slightly duck-footed on my right leg (foot naturally angled outwards) all in all it seems to make my plough pretty much useless as trying to apply pressure just makes my knees come together and not much happen.
Am i doomed to be a terrible skiier because of my wonky legs and inability to perform the most basic of ski manuvere?
will a pair of shiney new professionally fitted boots help to compensate for this (having noticed the nordica marketing gimmic of "natural foot stance" etc)
Cheers
MisterG
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| ive probably got into bad habits so ill be getting some lessons while away, hoping that a bigger gentler slope will afford me more thinking time to improve turns and add a bit of precision. |
You have sound like you have had quite a lot of instruction and guided practise. You also sound as though you may have tried to run before you could walk.
If you go from the top of the slope at Chill you will pick up speed pretty quickly and I do understand that you may tend to 'fight' the slope. I suggest you get off the lift a third of the way up on the left where they allow you to get off when on lessons. Then practise, practise, practise - nail the plough if its what you have learnt - of course you can do it. Then move higher up the slope. Then and only then move on to plough/parallel etc.
By the way if they tell you not to get off the lift early then ask for your lesson money back dude.
A lot of teaching now goes straight to parallel (as at Ski Rossendale) but its not for everyone, especially if you are an adult learner so Chill and SkiRoss will teach the plough as well.
good luck and practise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The snowplough is a useful tool to have available to you even if you don't use it much when regular skiing as there will be times when it's the only sensible option (eg approaching a lift queue when you need to slow down a bit but there isn't room to turn). Don't under-estimate how difficult it is to do a snowplough on relatively steep slopes. I have to wok extremely hard to do a decent plough demo at the top of the main slope in Hemel, which I believe is similar in steepness to the CFe slope. Maybe you're expecting too much, too soon?
A good boot setup will help with any biomechanical alignment issues, but I'd guess there is a limit to what can be corrected. But having said that I've only ever seen one person who was close to being unable to put any pressure on his inside edges when trying to plough, and that was because he was massively bandy legged. Being a bit knock-kneed I would have thought made it (too?) easy to get on the inside edges?
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A sowplough is horribly inefficient on anything moderately steep, and I actually find it painful to snowploug for to many hours in a row! But it's hard to get straight into parallel skiing as it takes a while to get the feeling of how the skis slide around. As Rob says being able to snowplouh is very useful in some scenario though!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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MisterG,
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| Am i doomed to be a terrible skier because of my wonky legs and inability to perform the most basic of ski manuvere? |
No. In my experience lots of 'good' skiers struggle to perform a good snow plough even on easy ground, and it gets harder as it gets steeper.
| Quote: |
| will a pair of shiney new professionally fitted boots help to compensate for this (having noticed the nordica marketing gimmic of "natural foot stance" etc) |
Yes, in that you'll have boots that fit and are comfortable, plus doing activities or exercise that improve your flexibility and range of movement will help too.
I read your post that the other 12 hours with without instruction ? Either way I'd suggest keep going with the lessons.
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The plough gives you a few things which are useful in the earlier stages of learning (along with using it in certain scenarios once you have greater skill and experience).
First off you get a wider base of support than when your skis are parallel which aids your balance. Also your skis are already partially rotated and edged through that rotation, by the very shape of the plough. This helps with both control of speed and turning. Speed - because the plough will naturally give a little braking and turning - the skis have already been turned slightly by making the plough shape itself.
Try to think of turns as giving control of speed not using the size of your plough to slow down, if you think of making nice rounded 'C' shape turns then this will more effectively control speed. A braking plough is useful in certain circumstances (like stopping  ), but if you use it whilst turning it becomes defensive and can slow progress towards making true parallel turns. You will also find that trying to plough over a certain speed on slopes over a certain steepness (not very at that) will cause your hips to lock and hurt like hell. Once they are locked it makes it very difficult to move them again in any direction!
It sounds like when you say "i simply struggled to apply pressure to the inside of the skis" that you may be (and it's hard without seeing what you are doing) focusing on trying to push downwards whilst making a plough, this will tend to make you a bit 'knock-kneed' whilst ploughing which will not slow you down. Focus on having a 'V' shape with your legs and with your skis. Without forcing things so the movement is unnatural for your body shape think of a 'headlight' on each knee which points to its respective ski tip. so left to left and right to right. If you make the plough shape correctly the pressure will come onto the inside edges as a PRODUCT of what you are doing as you ski down the hill.
It sounds like you are not afraid to go a bit quicker from your description, which is good. But be careful because if you are constantly on the verge of losing control you will develop some bad habits including poor posture and probably a lot of hip and shoulder rotation. These issues will stop your skiing skill from developing until you put them right. The best way to avoid habits is to not get them or have them so they are very ingrained (we all do get them to a degree, it's part of the learning experience and the way we learn) as it will take several thousand repetitions of the correct movement pattern to setup a new 'good' habit and replace the old 'bad' one.
Most people (like 99%) do not have completely straight feet, legs, knees etc. We tend to all pronate or supinate to a degree. This means you should be able to make a plough given the right corrective tuition. I like rob@rar, have only taught one person in 20 years of teaching who was so bandy-legged that they could not learn a plough (I had to teach them another way, anyone remember the 'fan' method?  ). Even if you do have real issues here, good boot fitting combined with skilled alignment/canting work will probably be able to correct the problem.
I work at Chill Factore and if you use the flat get off point a third of the way up the main slope when you are not on a lesson no-one will stop you. The nursery slope is for the ski school only but on the main slope anyone can use that get-off point.
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My OH could never plough properly, he can't get the legs in. Its to do with the way he stand I think with all th pressure on his outside of his shoes. Maybe boots could help him plough, he is getting some this season.
Anyway- he's now a really good skier for someone who didn't take it up until 33.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was told by an instructor at Bracknell (JK) to 'find another sport' as I couldn't snowplough. Mmmmmm... 4th season in LA doin' OK.. not great but OK.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skir67 said
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| I work at Chill Factore and if you use the flat get off point a third of the way up the main slope when you are not on a lesson no-one will stop you. The nursery slope is for the ski school only but on the main slope anyone can use that get-off point. |
Thats good to know (it did used to happen where folk were told they could not get off there-depended who liftie was) I think MisterG needs to spend some time doing this and to practise what you guys have taught him, without feeling pressurised to go higher.
By the way, my better half has a beginner day lesson at Chill next week.......i got it for her as an xmas pressie (she didn't hit me)
[/quote]
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| allanm wrote: |
| I was told by an instructor at Bracknell (JK) to 'find another sport' as I couldn't snowplough. Mmmmmm... 4th season in LA doin' OK.. not great but OK. |
I started teaching at Bracknell a long time back now.
Does anyone know if they still grade and train their instructors internally? If they do, it is an awful approach, why they think they can do a better job than BASI or English Snowsports is beyond me!
An instructor telling you to 'find another sport' is not helpful, time for that instructor to examine his 'box of tools'. I presume you persevered with learning?
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You know it makes sense.
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| sunnbuel wrote: |
skir67 said
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| I work at Chill Factore and if you use the flat get off point a third of the way up the main slope when you are not on a lesson no-one will stop you. The nursery slope is for the ski school only but on the main slope anyone can use that get-off point. |
Thats good to know (it did used to happen where folk were told they could not get off there-depended who liftie was)
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I've never known that to happen, but I don't work every day of the week. I suspect whoever the liftie is they need putting right. The managers of the ski school have never told the instructors that open practice customers cannot get off there. Also the signage in chill is good, so I can pretty much guarantee a sign would have been placed there warning OP customers not to get off there. In any case it would be impossible to 'police' as the lifties can't keep a track of all the customers who are in lessons. They have enough trouble stopping OP customers using the ski school priority line
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skir67,
it was a year ago and happened to quite a few families with kids. Maybe a troll liftie?
What the chill stance on taking a young kid on button between ya skis?
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Poster: A snowHead
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MisterG,
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Am i doomed to be a terrible skiier because of my wonky legs and inability to perform the most basic of ski manuvere?
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In a word no, You realise you have a problem, you have understood what that problem is and you are prepared to work to fix it so you will be just fine. Its just a few common issues that many beginners struggle with a little at first if they have tried to progress through the stages a little too quickly.
| Quote: |
controlling speed using the plough
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Not really a good idea even on a slope like chill. Using the plough as a method of speed control is not really what it is for and introducing it to beginners as a method of speed control is not really reccomended. The muscle strength required to hold a wide plough at anything but the slowest speeds is considerable.
The plough should be used to provide a good solid base from which to start to develop your turns.
It is turning across the slope that you should use to control your speed not the width of the plough.
If you are simply trying to make a wider and wider plough to try and control your speed you will not manage it
It also sounds a little like you are trying to create your plough with pure extension of your legs with no rotation of your feet.
If you look down at your skis when you are forming your plough how far apart are the ski tips?
Sometimes instructors do teach the plough as a 'braking' technique fairly early on and this can sometimes inhibit progress in developing the skills needed to turn effectively. But it may be a necessary evil if the slope you are learning on is fairly steep.
If you have some more lessons either as a group session or better still some 1-1 you will manage to overcome your
but dont feel frustrated if your lessons are back on the beginners slopes. Time spent sorting out the basics will pay you back manyfold when you venture onto steeper slopes.
Good luck and welcome to snowheads, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sunnbuel wrote: |
skir67,
it was a year ago and happened to quite a few families with kids. Maybe a troll liftie?
What the chill stance on taking a young kid on button between ya skis?
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I've seen it happen a few times and as far as I know it was never an issue. The majority of the lifties are helpful and will lend a hand if you need it and ask.
It's a method I use myself sometimes if the little one is having problems with the lift, means I can give them the sensation of being towed uphill and the safety of not falling off lots, plus a bit of chat on the way up on what they are meant to be doing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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MisterG, "This makes sense.. it goes back to the first plough lesson about "trying to squish an imaginary tomato under your big toe" and my range of motion."
This idea is more to do with using extension to apply pressure to the ski once you have learnt foot/leg rotation to do basic plough turns. I suggest someone has used this image/idea at the wrong point in your learning.
It's not an image I would give people when they are just learning to make and use a gliding plough. That image makes you focus on a vertical movement (pressuring) rather than turning your feet (rotation) to get the plough shape.
A better image for a straight, gliding plough, would be to imagine you have a spanner attached to the sole of both feet and you are trying to use the spanners to simulataneously tighten two bolts by the same amount (this should give you a nice symmetrical plough shape).
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allanm,
| Quote: |
told by an instructor at Bracknell (JK) to 'find another sport'
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Unbelivable! 
The problem was clearly with them and not you with an attitude like that I cannot believe that their instruction was worth much.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The muscle strength required to hold a wide plough at anything but the slowest speeds is considerable.
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I'll say. Watching a piste rescue guy bringing a casualty on a stretcher slowly down a steep slope, in a wide snowplough, is truly awe-inspiring.
I am not too good at snow-ploughing - have to remember to really keep the weight forward. I don't do it very often, at all, but sometimes it's indispensable. What I did find really, really, difficult and pretty well impossible was trying to snowplough on cross-country skis. I was completely hopeless and on anything other than a v gentle gradient had to hold the instructors poles like a 3 year old. 
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| skir67 wrote: |
| allanm wrote: |
| I was told by an instructor at Bracknell (JK) to 'find another sport' as I couldn't snowplough. Mmmmmm... 4th season in LA doin' OK.. not great but OK. |
I started teaching at Bracknell a long time back now.
Does anyone know if they still grade and train their instructors internally? If they do, it is an awful approach, why they think they can do a better job than BASI or English Snowsports is beyond me!
An instructor telling you to 'find another sport' is not helpful, time for that instructor to examine his 'box of tools'. I presume you persevered with learning? |
Yup, persevered, went to Farnborough, straight on to parallel, In les Arcs at the mo...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| allanm wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
| allanm wrote: |
| I was told by an instructor at Bracknell (JK) to 'find another sport' as I couldn't snowplough. Mmmmmm... 4th season in LA doin' OK.. not great but OK. |
I started teaching at Bracknell a long time back now.
Does anyone know if they still grade and train their instructors internally? If they do, it is an awful approach, why they think they can do a better job than BASI or English Snowsports is beyond me!
An instructor telling you to 'find another sport' is not helpful, time for that instructor to examine his 'box of tools'. I presume you persevered with learning? |
Yup, persevered, went to Farnborough, straight on to parallel, In les Arcs at the mo... |
Farnborough? Didn't think they had a slope.
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Well i had my first shot out with the new boots at chill and WOW what a difference...
I think i must have been using brute force with the hire boots, these ones are so much more responsive so there is a new learning curve. (plus trying to do beginner skiing is not ideal at 8pm on a saturday night where theres either hard-pack ice or soft furrows)
I had the first hour trying to do the plough but im still struggling to control speed, even on the lower slope. i *can* stop.. but it really does feel like im over-extending myself and really having to push my heels outwards.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ah, the plough.
I'm trying ery hard to avoid geting a group of beginners into the edged plough. This group aren't particularly brave (that's not a negative, some people shout Yahoo and go for it, some are more cautious). I just know that if I take them through stepping into a hanging plough and release, they'll all start controlling their speed with the inside edges before they've learned to control speed with direction.
The current line that is being taught is "Speed is controlled by controlling direction". To this end, the first exercises are taught using flat skis and then some edging is introduced to aid the turn.
I can see the sense of it. A lot of people get to intermediate and can't get out of what is essentially a braking plough. They can't traverse or sideslip without turning into a sort of tripod.
I was taught old stlye in 1975.
First run, schuss and fall over.
Second run schuss and stay up.
Then Hup and hard edged plough on the spot, repeat on the run down, Hup brake, hup brake.
Then run down in moving braking plough.
Now the turn. Braking plough and lean left for right, right for left.
then do that all over the mountain all week.
We ached all over. Bits ached that I didn't even realise I had. We could barely walk afterwards.
To cap it all, it took a whole load of unlearning to get to anything like actual skiing.
So, I finally get a copy of Joubert's "Skiing, an art, a technique". Back in the fifties it seem that this excellent gentleman recommemded a progression based on starting with flat skis and turning by applying rotational force to flat skis at first and then working up to more sophisitcated stuff. i.e the latest most 'modern stuff'.
A flat plough give a stable base which is handy for the less agile. An edged plough can be just plain hard work and slows you so that you stop when turning and have to do a load more wriggling and stuff to keep going.
I cheated this class into schussing by doing the "walk around the triangle, oops we're a bit bunched let's move that marker up a bit, oh that's a long walk let's move that marker in, don't worry if the skis slip a bit, just let them go".
I figure that starting in a broad schuss and then rotating one ski will put them in a plough turn without explicitly making them lock their skis out in a wedge.
Skir67, The fan method ? Might I know it by another name ? Always eager to learn new stuff.
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You know it makes sense.
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Something I would point out is that it sounds more like you are trying to push your legs out rather than rotating at the hips. If you push your feet out to create the plough, this will cause you to break like you said, however it will make it a lot harder to turn in control as you wont be as centred over the skis... so try to simely rotate your skis to a point with you weight forward and this should give you enough edge, rather than pushing your heels out.
I know in the first instance BASI qualified instructors will teach you to do a plough to control your speed and stop when you are doing straight running, however once you have started to turn you need to virtually forget you were ever taught this and use your turns to control speed, you can do this by making sure that you turn from facing one wall in the CF all the way to facing the other, by doing this you will of completed your turns... this will slow you down before making another turn and thus will give you more time to concentrate on what you are doing and get it right.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spiky1013, The BASI manual specifically warns against introducing plough braking before teaching plough turning. Unless you have no other option.
First runs : straight run from very small elevation and glide to a halt
Next: form gliding plough and straight runs to a halt.
Then: Introduce single turns.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| thirty06 wrote: |
Ah, the plough.
Skir67, The fan method ? Might I know it by another name ? Always eager to learn new stuff. |
It's actually very old methodology from basi manual 1 from back in the 70's. I got a copy of it given to me when I started teaching as it was out of print by the early 90's and basi at that time did not have a manual.
It's basically a method of teaching turning that avoids the plough-parallel phases (basic swing in 70's terms), it's really very static and comprises of doing lots of single-to-a-halt swings to the hill which get gradually steeper with practice until the learner crosses the fall line and makes a single complete parallel turn.
On a very,very, very occasional situation with a particular pupil I've found it worked. But I have only used it on a handful of occassions in 20 odd years of teaching. For instance in a situation were you get someone who categorically cannot plough because of physiological issues.
I really avoid it unless I absolutely have to use it and like I say there have not been many occassions where it was needed (and worked). It's just another 'tool' in the box of tricks, where you need to find a way of putting the content across that 'clicks' for the particular learner.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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MisterG, Just to explain how the plough works.
As you gradually extend and rotate your legs the plough size will get bigger, as it gets bigger it will 'naturally' have a greater edge angle. This edge angle will also be more across your direction of travel (owing to your foot rotation) as the wedge gets bigger.
So - as the wedge gets bigger the edge angle is 'naturally' bigger and the foot rotation means the skis are more across your direction of travel which gives more braking.
You do not need to 'add' extra edging this would be done by rolling your knees inwards, this is generally not desirable as it will tend to stop you from increasing the plough size if you needed to and block further free movement of your legs in any plane (vertical, rotational or lateral)
As I said before imagine you have a triangle with your legs and a triangle with your skis. Your knees should point towards the respective tips so left to left and right to right.
As has been said you want to focus on turn shape not plough size to control you speed. Remember that the first part of the turn to the fall line you will be increasing speed and the second half of the turn from the fall line you will be decreasing in speed (as long as you keep turning). Think of making the turn a 'C' shape. Feel for a sensation of graceful 'flow' through the turns, a cadence of increasing and slowing speed, but smooth rather than jerky, this will give you a feel of rhythm in the turns.
The aim is to be able to have the same speed at the end of every turn so that you maintain an even pace all the way down the slope rather than getting gradually faster and faster until you either have to stop or wipe out.
Being able to stop with the plough is useful and confidence building but be careful not to get fixated on doing this as it can then make your use of the plough 'defensive' when turning and slow down your progress towards parallel turning.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Having had an almost identical experience to MisterG with plough a year ago I believe that biomechanic issues can make techniques like plough at best very difficult. "Bow legs may be good for footballers but suck for skiing" as one poster previously put it. If like me you also happen to have limited hip rotation then the problem is compounded. (Check out the 1st video on the following link for seems a good test for hip mobility. Unfortunately the sound is lost at one stage in the video, but the smile on the guys face says it all when doing the internal rotation test). I appreciate a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing, and I am not (yet) a snowhead, but the more I read the more I realise there is a lot more to skiing than I first imagined, and one size does not fit all. Encouragingly it seems that regular and focused exercise can help increase hip rotation, while skilled boot fitting can address bow leg issues. Expert advice as a beginner is more important than at any other stage in sport, and skiing is no exception.
http://wn.com/Corrective_Exercise_How_to_Detect_Tightness_in_Adductor_Magnus_Reduced_Internal_Hip_Rotation
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dpaddym wrote: |
Having had an almost identical experience to MisterG with plough a year ago I believe that biomechanic issues can make techniques like plough at best very difficult. "Bow legs may be good for footballers but suck for skiing" as one poster previously put it. If like me you also happen to have limited hip rotation then the problem is compounded. (Check out the 1st video on the following link for seems a good test for hip mobility. Unfortunately the sound is lost at one stage in the video, but the smile on the guys face says it all when doing the internal rotation test). I appreciate a little knowledge can be a very dangerous thing, and I am not (yet) a snowhead, but the more I read the more I realise there is a lot more to skiing than I first imagined, and one size does not fit all. Encouragingly it seems that regular and focused exercise can help increase hip rotation, while skilled boot fitting can address bow leg issues. Expert advice as a beginner is more important than at any other stage in sport, and skiing is no exception.
http://wn.com/Corrective_Exercise_How_to_Detect_Tightness_in_Adductor_Magnus_Reduced_Internal_Hip_Rotation |
Cheers for that.. thinking back to a physio session i had about a year ago he did say i had quite limited hip mobility which is worse on one side.. and over the years its made my right leg/foot more abducted than the other.
Anyway bit of an update..
Ive now spent another 6 or so hours at chill, with probably half of that on the bunny slope zigzagging in the plough position... i can report im now much better and much more controlled now.
The main thing though was last night on the main slope.. after reading and watching lots of videos off here, i was hell bent on getting more control.. before my turns were made by manhandling the skis, partly due to speed gained by not completing them properly.. I was getting there but something was still missing.. the outside ski was still not gripping hard enough leading to quite alot of slip down the slope, and then i cracked it.. i realised i was making the turn by staying quite upright and rigid throughout.. i tried again but this time i bent ze knees a bit more and amazingly the outside ski had lots more edge for the second half of the turn which made it much cleaner.. hurrah!
Now i know some smartass will say that such a schoolboy mistake would have been picked up instantly in a lesson(and i agree!) but i aint made of money, and the buzz i got from finally nailing a good turn (in my eyes) was great  - i left chill with a smile on my face last night!
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| MisterG wrote: |
| - i left chill with a smile on my face last night! |
Excellent!
The rigid outside leg will often put the ski on a hard edge so it becomes much more difficult to rotate it by skidding (too much edge grip). A ski on it's edge will run faster than a ski which is skidding, especially if you do not "complete your turn" as the ski will just want to head straight down the hill. As you found, softening the leg makes it easier to steer it. If it's easier to steer it it's easier to complete your turn. Complete your turns and you have speed control. Problem solved.
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Watching the Wengen downhill yesterday, interesting to see a couple of the top guys threw in a quick snowplough just as they were coming into that realllllly narrow S at the end of the boulevard to shave pff a bit of speed
If it's good enough for them ...
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FAQ
you need sort out your basics, that will let you progress to a higher level of skiing.