 Poster: A snowHead
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Anyone happen to know the oldest age that someone has done this at?
If they happened to pass at one of the mucked up ones then that doesn't really count in my eyes (there was one in Garmisch I heard about and another in Les Menuires a long time back).
I'm interested in if there appears to be an age at which physically you're no longer capable of getting through one of the properly run ones as taking a punt on them mucking up the organisation and getting through on a sub-standard one doesn't offer very good odds.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I heard somebody once say it was 42 but I am not to sure about this?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i heard from an opener that an Austrian in his 60's got it but to me the age thing is more about the time in gates and the dry land training you need to do and the inevitable injuries that you will sustain doing it. I did a week ET training and got a slightly sprained a knee after crashing out, our group had one ACL, one (supposed) broke nose and one back injury in the group of 16 and they were youngsters under 30. the four old guys (all with ISIA's) pretty much sucked in the courses (me included who sucked the worst)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skir67, I've heard mid 40's, but I get the impression that it's unusual at that age. I know people who have trained hard at that age and not made it - yet.
I'm also that age and quite fancy a pop, but as skimottaret suggests the risk of injury seems high, and more importantly the time needed to heal is longer 
I guess if you already have plenty of race experience it's going to be an easier job.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'll see if BASI are aware.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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This is one of the areas where I feel BASI members miss out in that there is obviously an enormous body of knowledge of experience and otherwise of BASI members but nowhere really for this experience/knowledge to be shared (other than a forum like this).
I think BASI did have a go at a forum (my memory might be wrong here) a few years back but it never got anywhere, but I suspect that was because it wasn't really publicized. I only stumbled on it when I logged into the members area once.
I'm tempted to get back into teaching full-time, but there are lots of possible routes to making this financially viable. However finding the info required to make sensible decisions is difficult. For instance I'd like more info on viable places to work (outside of France, I'm only ISIA). As an example of useful info - I do some voluntary work in Verbier and I know that working for the Brit schools there is pretty pointless as unless you are a long way up the priority list you won't get enough hours to make a living. However I'd like more background info on that sitaution from a range of instructors at different grades in different schools. On the whole I think the place has been flooded by people doing gap courses and then being taken on by the ski school for the rest of that season. It works for the owners of the ski schools, but not for anyone trying to make a career and living from teaching for the forseeable future.
I think the eurotest is an outside chance for me, I've tried it before so I know the difficulty involved in passing it. But these days there are lots of businesses that will train you towards it (for a price of course) and have a track record of people successfully passing. It may be worth my while to contact some of them of course (however they have a certain vested interest in getting people on their courses). I trained with one guy for a winter and it took him six seasons of full time training to get through in the end and he was no slouch!
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| Quote: |
This is one of the areas where I feel BASI members miss out in that there is obviously an enormous body of knowledge of experience and otherwise of BASI members but nowhere really for this experience/knowledge to be shared (other than a forum like this).
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That's the aim of introducing my role - to encourage this type of discussion and knowledge sharing on forums like this. At the moment I personally think it's more effective to make use of other forums rather than for BASI to estbalish its own, as they get the traffic needed to make these discussions work. Most of the BASI people posting here come here anyway, even those very active in the online world probably wouldn't visit a BASI only forum very frequently.
I've also recently established BASI's page on Facebook, and I hope to make that a forum where members can go to arrange transport and accommodation shares etc. If you're interested it's here:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/BASI-British-Association-of-Snowsport-Instructors/171660376197714
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
This is one of the areas where I feel BASI members miss out in that there is obviously an enormous body of knowledge of experience and otherwise of BASI members but nowhere really for this experience/knowledge to be shared (other than a forum like this).
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That's the aim of introducing my role - to encourage this type of discussion and knowledge sharing on forums like this. At the moment I personally think it's more effective to make use of other forums rather than for BASI to estbalish its own, as they get the traffic needed to make these discussions work. Most of the BASI people posting here come here anyway, even those very active in the online world probably wouldn't visit a BASI only forum very frequently.
I've also recently established BASI's page on Facebook, and I hope to make that a forum where members can go to arrange transport and accommodation shares etc. If you're interested it's here:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/BASI-British-Association-of-Snowsport-Instructors/171660376197714 |
That facebook page is interesting, I didn't know it existed, so thanks. It looks like it is pretty new as there's not much content on it yet, but I guess that will (hopefully) change with time.
I think when BASI had a go at their own forum it didn't work out because no-one basically used it. You need to have a lot of publicity and weblinks along with a 'core' of committed initial users who post stuff even when the forum is still effectively 'dead' to start to get the ball rolling. Something tacked onto this forum or another with forum areas for different stuff would be useful, but of course that requires the support and commitment of forum owners and of course they may not think that a BASI or instructors sub-forum fits in with the ethos of their sites. Headings like 'employment', 'speedtest', and training forums specific to each level of qualification would be good. Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others that would be useful as well.
I wonder if BASI approached a suitable forum with a sponserhip commitment if this could happen?
I wish when I'd started teaching 20 plus years ago a resource like that had been available. Now I feel like I have valuable info to pass on and I know that there are lots of people who I'd like to get info off. And I appreciate that this forum could supply that potentially. There are I know a fair few instructors on here but the percentage of BASI members on here I'd imagine is still pretty low.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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EURO speed test..?
Anyone want to enlighten a newbie..?
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Mac22, timed giant slalom test for ski instructors.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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merci
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mac22, It's an element of some (most?) Hi level Ski Instructor qualification systems. Basically a Giant Slalom Race, to FIS Regs (ish), where the 'pass' time is calculated as a percentage of the time that would theoretically be achieved by best racer in the world. This is done with Racers of a known quality skiing the course to find a base time which is then adjusted back. From this Men need to score within the time plus about 15% while for Ladies it's a little more +18.5% (I'm sure I'll be corrected on those numbers).
It's fair to say that a whole training industry has grown around the system where guys who have qualified train those who are attempting to qualify.
A search on here will throw up lots of discussion as to the pro's, con's, intricacies and conspiracy theory's regarding the speed test.
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rob@rar, crossed  And yours was better !
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow, thanks for the explanation! Sounds fun!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Why does a ski instructor need to be able to ski fast through gates like that? Surely people who want race training would go to a specialist instructor, sounds like they might be missing out on a lot of potentially very talented and able instructors by having a speed test that only people right at the very top of their game can pass?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
Mac22, It's an element of some (most?) Hi level Ski Instructor qualification systems. Basically a Giant Slalom Race, to FIS Regs (ish), where the 'pass' time is calculated as a percentage of the time that would theoretically be achieved by best racer in the world. This is done with Racers of a known quality skiing the course to find a base time which is then adjusted back. From this Men need to score within the time plus about 15% while for Ladies it's a little more +18.5% (I'm sure I'll be corrected on those numbers).
It's fair to say that a whole training industry has grown around the system where guys who have qualified train those who are attempting to qualify.
A search on here will throw up lots of discussion as to the pro's, con's, intricacies and conspiracy theory's regarding the speed test. |
It is to FIS regs. Time for men is within 18% for women 24%. There are time setters for each sex.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Monium wrote: |
| Why does a ski instructor need to be able to ski fast through gates like that? Surely people who want race training would go to a specialist instructor, sounds like they might be missing out on a lot of potentially very talented and able instructors by having a speed test that only people right at the very top of their game can pass? |
The whole point of it is as an economic barrier to working as a ski instructor in France. It keeps the numbers who can teach down, which means that if you're legal to work in France you can earn a decent living for the rest of your working days. A lower supply of available teachers keeps the prices of lessons up. Pure supply versus demand at work.
TBH I agree with it in principle (and I haven't passed it), it's entirely non-subjective (i.e relying on a bunch of examiners to grade you correctly) and once you've got your ticket you've a job for life. Unlike the current situation in most countries where only the young are ski teachers and only for a few years max because it is not generally possible to earn a living from it (there are exceptions to the rule).
Currently the latest craze seems to be for 'gap courses' which are flooding the instructor market with people that instruct for a season or 2 max and then go to uni or get a 'real' job. This situation is great for those that run the courses, but pretty crap for anyone who wants to make a long term living from ski teaching (except those that can work in France of course).
Some resorts are getting flooded with these instructors. Verbier is a good example for one. The ski schools on the whole don't care as they will take whoever is qualified enough (e.g under BASIs system - level 2) and then pay by the hours taught. There are a couple of exceptions with the schools that are only taking on level 3 basi min and a limited number so that all their staff get enough hours work to make a living.
I was talking to a senior instructor with one of the main culprits in Verbier some years back and he was getting on average 2 or 3 hours a day, which is not a sustainable living unless you are independently rich!
I'm even finding in this country that ski schools are employing level 1's and excluding level 3's because they are cheaper to employ and most customers have no concept of the grading system for instructors in the UK. To them an instructor is an instructor is an instructor........
So I'm not qualified enough to work in france and I lose work because I'm too qualified in this country!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What type of slope do they put these courses on? Deadly steep? Moderate? Easy? How many testees run the course? Do you get clean courses? Ruts up to your ding dong? So much offset you need to pivot? Set such that good skiers can do it arc to arc? Just trying to get a handle on how tough this really is. Am i right that a guy needs to get within 18 percent of a 0 FIS point level to pass? Depending on the course, that could be relatively easy, or pretty tough. It's only 3.6 seconds out on a 20 second course. Seems a lot, but if the course is set tough it can open the spreads.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks, kevindonkleywood, that gives me a clear idea of what's required. Moderate pitch, pretty open, arc to arc, track good shape. No cheaters on that course, use the race stock GS boards.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| Thanks, kevindonkleywood, that gives me a clear idea of what's required. Moderate pitch, pretty open, arc to arc, track good shape. No cheaters on that course, use the race stock GS boards. |
The stades have to be FIS approved with a minimum number of gates, minimum elevation change and are usually 55 - 70 seconds long. The openers are current racers or recently retired with a maximum of 50 FIS points.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| What type of slope do they put these courses on? Deadly steep? Moderate? Easy? How many testees run the course? Do you get clean courses? Ruts up to your ding dong? So much offset you need to pivot? Set such that good skiers can do it arc to arc? Just trying to get a handle on how tough this really is. Am i right that a guy needs to get within 18 percent of a 0 FIS point level to pass? Depending on the course, that could be relatively easy, or pretty tough. It's only 3.6 seconds out on a 20 second course. Seems a lot, but if the course is set tough it can open the spreads. |
The one I did had about 100 people entered, 85% of whom were men. At the end of the day 1 guy passed (I think he'd raced some europa cup) and 4 women got through (this could have been because the womens time setter didn't turn up and they put the esf woman who'd been training us the week before down the course for a time - she was only recently ex-french A squad!)
You get a time on each run and if you pass on the first run then that's it your home and dry, the two run times are not added together. You get a start number and on the second run the order is reversed, so obviously a late start would give big ruts first time down, but second run things would be a lot less rutted.
I was at Morzine which is a lady's front bottom of a course as it has two virtual 90 degree bends in the first 400 metres of the course which unless you are very skilled kills all of your speed. Even the french trainees I trained with were complaining the test was too hard!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skir67, Our times can be used for both male and female participants, it makes no difference as they use our calibration against our real time to make the base time.
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As for age i guess it depends on the type of 40 year old you are, your fitness levels do make a big difference. At the end of the day it comes down to how well you can ski/race if you are a high level adaptable skier you will take to the gates quickly, so If you are 40's/50's sporty and still active there is no reason why you couldn’t pass.
At the Olympics there where several guys in there late 30's early 40's competing in the skicross having bounced back from injuries in the same season and also in alpine Patrik Jaerbyn is born in 1969 and still ranked top 30 in two disciplines.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jjc wrote: |
| skir67, Our times can be used for both male and female participants, it makes no difference as they use our calibration against our real time to make the base time. |
Fair enough, sounds like things have changed a bit as they had openers for males and females at the one I went to, which was back in 2000.
So you're a calibrated opener for eurotests? There can't be too many of you guys in the UK I'd of thought?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skir67, jjc training has 3 of them IIRC
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I imagine the test has adapted over the years. I have been doing it for the last 3 seasons and there has always only been one female opener from germany who tends to only be at the german tests, her time can also be used for the guys. At the moment there is four of us calibrated from BASI Alain Baxter, James Bennet, Jas Bruce and myself Craig Robinson. BASI try to have at least two of us at every test now along with Susie Berry a FIS TD who makes sure everything is being run properly. I was in Morzine the season before last and agree with you its a pretty tough test!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
That facebook page is interesting, I didn't know it existed, so thanks. It looks like it is pretty new as there's not much content on it yet, but I guess that will (hopefully) change with time. |
It's only a few weeks old and gaining new members every day. The more people who use it the more useful it will become, so it'll be promoted in the next BASI e-news, on the website etc.
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I think when BASI had a go at their own forum it didn't work out because no-one basically used it. You need to have a lot of publicity and weblinks along with a 'core' of committed initial users who post stuff even when the forum is still effectively 'dead' to start to get the ball rolling. Something tacked onto this forum or another with forum areas for different stuff would be useful, but of course that requires the support and commitment of forum owners and of course they may not think that a BASI or instructors sub-forum fits in with the ethos of their sites. Headings like 'employment', 'speedtest', and training forums specific to each level of qualification would be good. Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others that would be useful as well.
I wonder if BASI approached a suitable forum with a sponserhip commitment if this could happen?
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I think this and other forums does the job for now, more and more web savvy instructors are becoming aware of where to go for these types of discussions, and hopefully what I'm doing will continue that trend. The powers that be review progress with me regularly, so if / when it's thought apprporiate to explore a more dedicated BASI forum we'll discuss the pros and cons.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skir67, Your right this is a very tough question to answer as not only the test is variable, training is often run in the pre season where the weather can play a big part on the amount of training time in gates available. We had weeks in Saas Fee were we skied all 6 days and a week at the end where there were 3 down days due to wind. But saying that the majority of people start with a fairly large training block 4-6 weeks and go from there depending on how they perform. Most will do 1 or 2 of these blocks and then fit in training in between tests during the season. We've been working hard to organise training during the season just before test dates in a quiet spot for working instructors, but it's tough to work, train and go to tests in the limited time given by the winter season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've asked the question, but the BASI office is shut until tomorrow - will get back to you as soon as the people I need to speak to are back from their hols!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| I've asked the question, but the BASI office is shut until tomorrow - will get back to you as soon as the people I need to speak to are back from their hols! |
Thanks, the info will be interesting, hopefully they can supply info on where tests were passed so a couple of the 'dodgy' ones can be discounted.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Basi won't necessarily know pass results unless the candidate sends in a copy of their certificate which you get on the day from the French or whoever's running the test.
I personally know of two 44yr olds who've passed in the last yr or so....JJC talks a lot of sense. My 2p worth would be breaking up the training so not to rely on autumn only; being strong, lean and fit and get used to having and maintaining seriously sharp edges. If you're not the quickest or nearly quickest in your training grp you'd be as well spending your time and hard earned bucks training more than going off on expensive eurotest excursions.
Passing would be a big achievement but 140-160fis isn't massive in the grand scheme of ski racing. Brits also have the advantage of going to all the tests that Germany Italy etc etc host so I'd imagine the chances of happening upon a slightly more do-able one every once in a while would be increased.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Jonnie wrote: |
Basi won't necessarily know pass results unless the candidate sends in a copy of their certificate which you get on the day from the French or whoever's running the test.
I personally know of two 44yr olds who've passed in the last yr or so....JJC talks a lot of sense. My 2p worth would be breaking up the training so not to rely on autumn only; being strong, lean and fit and get used to having and maintaining seriously sharp edges. If you're not the quickest or nearly quickest in your training grp you'd be as well spending your time and hard earned bucks training more than going off on expensive eurotest excursions.
Passing would be a big achievement but 140-160fis isn't massive in the grand scheme of ski racing. Brits also have the advantage of going to all the tests that Germany Italy etc etc host so I'd imagine the chances of happening upon a slightly more do-able one every once in a while would be increased. |
How long had these 44 year olds been training and what was their racing background?
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Jonnie,
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| If you're not the quickest or nearly quickest in your training grp you'd be as well spending your time and hard earned bucks training more than going off on expensive eurotest excursions. |
I'd be pretty tempted to try and find my way onto the local race 'circuit' to get more actual race experience. I've a strong hunch that a lot of instructors train hard but struggle to get a 'Race Face' on the day.
If\when I get around to training gates again, I'll be focusing on treating the 1st 2 runs of the day as the real thing, aiming to be fast as possible on that 1st run after inspection. The rest of the day can then be technical.
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Definitely not racers those 40something fellas...just worked hard tho it didn't come easy. A lot to be said for immersing yourself in ski racing as much as you can and not working yourself up about the test. When you're good enough you pass basically....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jonnie wrote: |
| Definitely not racers those 40something fellas...just worked hard tho it didn't come easy. A lot to be said for immersing yourself in ski racing as much as you can and not working yourself up about the test. When you're good enough you pass basically.... |
That's good advice really, you'd just treat it like just another race, more likely to stop you getting too nervous about the whole thing and not perform as well as you could.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
Jonnie,
| Quote: |
| If you're not the quickest or nearly quickest in your training grp you'd be as well spending your time and hard earned bucks training more than going off on expensive eurotest excursions. |
I'd be pretty tempted to try and find my way onto the local race 'circuit' to get more actual race experience. I've a strong hunch that a lot of instructors train hard but struggle to get a 'Race Face' on the day.
If\when I get around to training gates again, I'll be focusing on treating the 1st 2 runs of the day as the real thing, aiming to be fast as possible on that 1st run after inspection. The rest of the day can then be technical. |
yes getting a FIS licence might be an idea and then just go to any reasonably local FIS races to wherever you are for more race experience.
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FAQ
Itsx all to do with the French 
Therefore I was slow in the gates. But I'd had no formal training in anything gate related bar an SNSC APC course and a weeks race training with the ESF prior to the morzine eurotest, plus a bit of running gates on a dry slope.
