 Poster: A snowHead
|
The ESF 'snake' has always taken a lot of stick over the years for lack of teaching and its follow me style (correctly so).
So NEW for this season from ESF TIGNES LE LAC is 8 per group !! The only exceptions being February French holidays, when the maximum will be 12.
The price for 5 mornings sessions is ONLY €144 (09.00 - 12.00)
Check out the details here http://www.esf-tignes.org/ski-school-tignes-le-lac/
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I've noticed that ESF are pushing this max class size in a number of resorts - as you say rightly so as well.
From observation this doesn't seem to apply to the ESF run lessons for Club Med etc - these still seem to have hundreds. I think this is the arrangement between ESF and Club Med re price
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
That's good - our local ESI has maximum of 10 even in holidays, but if the ESF bring theirs down to 8, will presumably have to follow. I've seen classes of 14 kids at busy times.  Mind you, that's nothing compared to what a young friend of ours was given when he started his work in one of the snowdomes having done BASI 2 in his gap year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
From observation this doesn't seem to apply to the ESF run lessons for Club Med etc - these still seem to have hundreds. I think this is the arrangement between ESF and Club Med re price[/quote]
This has never been my experience of CM but then I only go out of school holiday weeks so can't comment on those. Last time I was in a group of 6 peeps.
Great that ESF are trying to make smaller classes in general though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
That is good to hear. This is an adult total beginner group with just 1 instructor in LDA in March 2008.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 24-10-10 8:44; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
being slightly cynical it is easy to say "we have reduced class sizes" when your planned business will probably be down and you wont be filling classes anyways ... last year was a pretty thin year for most france based ski schools from what i heard and i cant imagine this year will be a huge increase in tourists... more of a case in that we wont fill 10 person sized classes outside the school holidays anyways so may as well change what we say on the tin...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well I reckon it's still a sensible marketing ploy - might help make some minds up. Butterfly, Was there no other instructor bringing up the rear?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
pam w, no. We saw the same group a bit later on the same morning and watched them practising their snowploughs coming down from a small mound in the nursery area - the instructor was catching those who couldn't stop by one arm and quite a few ended up in a snowy heap.
I have to say in ESF's defence, that when I was in a group 1 in Vallandry there were about 15 of us, but two instructors were allocated. They taught us together on the first day then split us into two groups thereafter, based on their observation of us. I thought that was an excellent policy. It is of course possible that another instructor joined the group in the photo at a later point, or on day 2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Group lessons  . Waste of money. Invest in private lessons and you will learn so much faster. I am willing to bet that the same amount of money spent on a group lesson spent on a private lesson(s) would produce better results.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
stewart woodward, yeah perhaps i was too cynical, i had heard from a few people (not in tignes) that it was a pretty tough year last year hence my comment. good to hear that you guys were busy!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I disagree. I've had some good and some very good group lessons (as well as some distinctly average). Never failed to learn something, even from the distinctly average. And for beginners or early skiers having the help with finding your way round the mountain (and lift priority at busy times) for half of each day can be well worthwhile, as can the cameraderie and generally having a laugh. Yes, private lessons are excellent but they're not the only way, or even necessarily the best way for everyone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I think there's definite merit to both individual and group lessons; I did a mix of both last season and benefitted in different ways from each. Private tuition allowed much more focussed instruction on technique, whereas group lessons provided a much better mix of terrain, snow, speeds and the need to adapt. I used ESF for both and would definitely do it again, and to be fair I never noticed any problems with the group sizes. My group started with 5 of us, and ended the week with 6, and the other groups I saw were all relatively similar in size.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
I've noticed that ESF are pushing this max class size in a number of resorts
|
Does anyone have any idea if ESF in Les Arcs 2000 have taken up this policy?
I'm going next week and to be honest I'm slightly apprehensive after reading this thread 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
thefatcontroller,
"Group lessons . Waste of money"
Totally disagree with complete beginners. IMO ideal group size is about 4 to 5; they see you do the demo; they then see others attempt and hear feedback.
Once they can P-P then smaller numbers are better and once you get to advanced stuff 1 to 1 is best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
1 to 1 can sometimes be brilliant - worked very well for me on some lessons off piste last year when even in a small group we'd have been spending some time waiting for people to dig themselves out of holes - but it can also be good to have a very small group (2 or 3) doing more difficult things. If it's just you (who can't do it) and an instructor (who makes it look so easy) it can be a bit intimidating. Also the analysis and feedback can be very productive - if you're standing with the instructor learning how to "see" what people are doing right and wrong.
And it's cheaper. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
ESF director in 2Alpes told us this week that you can expect to see class sizes up to 14 during peak season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Lizzard wrote: |
| ESF director in 2Alpes told us this week that you can expect to see class sizes up to 14 during peak season. |
I am stressing a bit about this now, we are going to ADH for New Year and have got our party's kids booked into ESF. First time with ESF (except for a bad Piou Piou experience) as we usually use an ESI school(max. eight in group), or book shared private lessons. We had no option this time as it's an odd duration Mon-Mon over NY week which means ski school Tues-Sun so we booked ESF via the TO. I did enquire to the ESI but their lessons were running Sun-Fri as normal and so we would have missed the first two. Private lesson not a realistic option this time due to fewer kids in party and they are spread over 2 or 3 ability levels. Does anyone have anything reassuring to say?
Also how do the ESF work out the kids levels? Do you tell them what class based on kids previous level or do they take them all for a 'ski off' and divide them up that way? At what level does the class size get smaller? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
We had a reasonably good ESF experience in Alpe d'Huez sarah, but for me this was adult beginner lessons (over New Year week, 2 years ago). Yes our group was reasonably big, but I don't think it hurt us too much. There is a bit of standing about waiting for others, but it wasn't bitterly cold, and as beginners it meant we benefitted by a bit of rest (so could ski more in the afternoon by ourselves).
Our lad (7 at the time) was in ESF kids lessons. He hated the first 2 days, the instructor was a bit of a battle axe and he just didn't like her. They had a different instructor for the remainder who was a young lad, and Jnr had a much better time of it. A lot of our opinion about ESF is probably formed by our experiences of individual instructors, if you get a "good" instructor you have positive opinion, the reverse can also be true. I think the group sizes were relatively small in comparison to the adult groups, we were certainly happy with Jnrs progression during the week.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Although he had spent a day or two skiing as a 4yo I think he went in the beginners group (I don't really know I was too busy being sorted out myself, and the OH sorted Jnr out - she's the experienced skier).
And yes, the battle axe was a middle aged French lady. Where as the young lad was seen to be a bit cool, and easier going with the kids, I think they got more out of it as a result.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We had heard this about ESF group sizes and I actively studied sizes when on lifts. It ws xmas week and the most we saw in a group was 8. Well done to ESF for addressing this problem and well done for the quality of product they supplied to our group that week. First class service was also provided by Evolution 2 ski school.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I don't get why people don't control this for themselves by booking group private lessons. Just book an instructor for the time you need, split the cost between you, and it will work out less if there's more than a couple in the group.
A group of 8 sounds like a lot. A group of 12 sounds like more than a lot. If I was booking group lessons I'd have expected 4-8 in a group - how can an instructor possibly be expected to provide meaningful feedback to so many people, and actually see them in action to correct mistakes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, which resort? Also Christmas week is much quieter than other peak holiday weeks, but good to know.
We used the ESF in ADH last week, New Year week and it was busy. They definitely had 12 in just about all the groups I saw including the ones our party's kids were in, there was some movement of kids and each morning I was counting to make sure there weren't 13 or 14! As a contrast I saw the ESI school there which is called EasySki  and their groups were max 8, often less. I would have booked them but had to pay 6 days and get only 4 due to the odd arrival day.
Bizarrely the ESF ADH are offering max size of 8 per group for February holidays which is the opposite of what the Tignes ESF are offering as mentioned above.
hammerite, Fortunately our lot didn't get any battleaxes, the little one did initially but changed groups.
Monium, you can't do this unless there are enough in your party and all of a similar standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
sarah, the resort is La Rosiere, the ESF there have been operating a maximum group size policy for some time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
davidl, thanks, that explains it then, never been but aren't there several really good ski schools there? Lots of competition for the ESF then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
If I was booking group lessons I'd have expected 4-8 in a group
|
Monium, then you'd quite possibly have been sadly disappointed. Prices vary a lot - you'll pay more for small groups (naturally enough) and a lot more for some of the "British" ski schools (not so naturally enough). For example the BASS schools will charge around £140 for 4 x 2 hour lessons (max group size 6 I think) whereas our local ski school charges 86 - 118 euros for 6 lessons, depending on season (max group size 10).
You can "engage" a ski instructor for a whole day, and make what use of him/her you want. BASS Megeve (as an example) charge £395 for a 6 hour day for up to 6 people, our local ski school charges 200 - 230 euros for 7 hours, up to 5 people. You don't have to be all the same level. You could split your group, morning and afternoon. It is also possible for a good instructor to keep quite a disparate group working well - for example if working on side-slipping (a sadly neglected skill), the more advanced could be doing "falling leaf" style exercises or side slipping on the top ski only, and if they get too cocky, without poles. 
There is plenty of evidence that people can learn to ski very well in sizeable group classes, if they are well run. I suspect we Brits may be a bit precious. Our neighbours kids have been doing the various ESF stages for the last five years and they are very, very, good. And I daresay that many of the top racers in France and Austria started the same way. The local "ski club" group (the budding racers) work in very large groups. And I'd like to be able to ski like those kids.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Lou, There's always something that can be done to wipe the superior smirk off those people who think they're too good to take lessons with less experienced skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
sarah, Jnr didn't have any battleaxes this time round either. Although there was a "I need to go to the loo" minor incident!
Jnr had all day lessons with ESF with a lunch club, he loved it (althouh he did ski with us all day Christmas day). 8 in his group in the morning, just 3 in the afternoon. He went out a Flocons, and came back with his 1 and 2 stars. We were happy with his progress too, I even swore under my breath about how easy he made it look when he skied with us!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
so we must be doing something right 
