How simple can we make it?

A snowHead

Following on from the HH thread:

Put one ski on it's edge and stand on it - let it turn - then do the same on the other side. That simple enough for you???

ps: does not apply to straight skis

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

easiski, that's too easy, it can't be right. I have to find something to do with these here muscles I've trained up to go skiing with. wink

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easiski, you'll be out of a job if it's that simple wink

Seriously this is one of the few times I've contributed on technique. When I found carvers a few years back, that really is all you need to do to cruise blues and flat wide reds. Great fun in good weather. I really felt I was getting to the 'twitch of a big toe' to initiate a turn. Mind you I'm rubbish in bad viz, hopeless in bumps and beyond hope off piste - so maybe I still need a lesson or two. snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

easiski, it probably is that easy if you learn at a young age as long as you remember to tell them the stand on it bit.

But to those of us who started in the geriatric ages of their twenties and beyond most of the problem is dealing with the psycho-emotional overlay of fear of falling in general and fear of the fall-line in particular. Hence the stiff legs, the leaning backwards, the leaning up the hill, the static postures, the over-turning, the over-edging, the stemming etc. And that's before the over-trying and under-relaxing. Seems to me most of beginner/intermediate level teaching is dealing with various manifestations of these sorts of things. rolling eyes

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slikedges, I really don't agree. I've taught beginners from every age up to 82, and teching people to ski (IMHO) is all about persuading them that it really is that simple! If I have a beginner it's easy. It's not so easy for the intermediate 6 weeker, who hasn't had lessons for at least the last 3 ski-ing weeks. Sure there are other issues, but if you read your post again, see how complicated you're making it! The psycological stuff is just that, and there are lots of ways of overcoming psycological blocks.

Stiff legs and leaning backwards and in are almost always caused by a dodgy first week instructor rushing the first couple of days. Ski-ing is exaclty like walking/running, you can already do it, but your head gets in the way.

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OTOH, if you make it sound complicated, people at least don't feel so bad if they can't do it wink

One instructor told me about a classic French book on ski instruction that said that for the first 2 weeks of skiing, an skier should just do straight running down a short easy slope with a big run out. I think the idea was that you get the skier used to standing on his/her skis perfectly with the right balance. Clearly, if an instructor ever tried to do this, they wouldn't have much repeat business. However, I do feel that if you can get someone standing on their skis properly, most other things come a lot more easily.

After all it is free

Instruction is at least in part about giving a level of confidence to your student, I once taught a pair of students to ski in about 4 or 5 hours at 11,000 ft on a very short 100 M or less ski slope, they went from never having skied in their lives to being able to do basic parallel turns with confidence just through a bit of basic instruction. I also have used trickery, friends of mine who came skiing with me 4 years ago and who'd only had lessons on a dry ski slope went in one day from Blue runs with low confidence to Reds with great confidence, I boosted their confidence by taking them down an easy stretch of Black run, having shown them that they could do a Black, Reds gave them a lot less fear (I cheated however as the Black section they were on was also a Red). A good instructor will instill a high level of confidence in their students by patiently explaining both what the student is doing correctly and wht they are doing wrong and then show them how to correct things, a bad instructor tends to just forcefully tell a student what they're doing wrong and not really be able to show them how to do it correctly.

There is however always a chance that you will come across someone who despite wanting to learn to ski just cannot manage it no matter how much they try, usually this will be down to something like dodgy knees or hips, something that makes it incredibly difficult to ski but is not noticeable normally

easiski,

Works for me! I always think there is so much BS talked about skiing, no wonder it scares the cr@p out of some people!

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easiski, Are you saying it's just as easy to teach a 50yr old as to teach a 12 yr old?

Other than that, I'm not sure what we're saying is that different. I'm not making it at all complicated. I'm simply commenting on what I have observed are the commonest flaws I see in people's skiing, and that I think these are largely rooted in fear and defensiveness ("your head gets in the way").

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slikedges, It's not any more difficult to teach a 50 year old than a 12 year old - it just takes longer and more patience. there are different challenges with each. I agree with what you said in principal, but your language made it sound more complicated (over-edging, over-turning etc.) if a novice is thinking in these terms then they're being distracted by "skispeak".

Arno, That's exactly why so many self employed instructors do make it sound complicated: "baffle the clients with science and they won't realise what they're NOT learning!" Sad but true. Sad

You know it makes sense.

easiski, What is it that makes it take longer for you to teach a 50yr old than a 12yr old? Also, I'd be interested to hear how you describe/refer to over-edging and over-turning to a novice?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I can simplify it further I think.

Put feet in boots.

Put boots in bidings.

Point skis down hill.

Enjoy:D

A snowHead

A snowHead

slikedges, It takes longer for older people to learn anything. they're less accustomed to learning. The 12 year old is learning all day everyday at school etc. We get out of the habit as we get older unless we're careful. In addition the 12 year old is unlikely to be afraid of falling and is likely to be currently doing more sport than the 50 year old. they are less likely to be overweight (although this is changing with alarming speed). The 50 year old (due to the British ageism culture) has also probably been told they're too old to learn etc. etc. so arrive with a less positive outlook. Having said all that, if you start them off slowly and gently, and don't rush them away from the nursery slopes (we have really good, progressive ones here fortunately) then they can catch up, but will probably never be a fast or fearless as the 12 year old. Of course all this is dreadful generalisation, and there are always exceptions.

ise, Yeah ...... shame though that it's the case. Failure is relative though. I think part of the problem with ski-ing is that people are led (by the amazing progress of beginners in their first week) to believe that they will always progress at that rate, and are perhaps not realistic enough about how long it takes to acquire any physical skill.

Kramer, A good friend of mine who I admire a lot both as a skier and a teacher said " put your skis on your feet, point downhill and turn left or right occasionally to slow down".
Shocked

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I taught beginners (almost exclusively) to ski on Cairngorm back in the mid-1970s, having trained - very luckily - with Ali Ross who was consultant to the landmark Sunday Times book 'We Learned to Ski'.

Ali certainly believed in simplifying one's teaching strategy. For instance, he had an interesting approach of deconstructing racers' technique to the point where he would have them descending mountains in steered snowplough turns to feel the dramatic carving effect of 'point knees left to turn left etc.

There are always vested interests in skiing to re-invent things, to complicate them, and make them sound sophisticated. The best teachers communicate it in Plain English, conveying one simple instruction at a time.

Of course, skiing isn't that straightforward because terrain and snow conditions impose changes to the feedback and control needed, but the rudiments of technique never change. Getting them ingrained into the brain and body is the key to it.
Once that's achieved, and technique is secure, intuition can achieve a great deal.

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easiski,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

easiski, You've just come round to what I had originally said. Of course it's more difficult to learn when you're older. And assuming comparing like with like, the psycho-emotional overlay is the main barrier. Of course you may not feel it's more difficult to teach, just different, but that's not talking about the same thing. I'd say it's more diffic to teach if the learner takes longer or can't reach the same standard.

Anyway, how do you explain over-edging and over-turning to a novice?

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Good question, comprex, - you've put me on the spot! I suppose the thing I've personally found intuitive (if one slightly bends the meaning to 'self-taught') is skating on the flat or gentle downhill stretches. Skating skis is almost ignored in ski instruction (it certainly wasn't in my professional training) but of immense value, IMHO. But it's such a lovely feeling.

Of course, nordic skiers do skating much more sensibly and efficiently with their kit.

But I suppose intuition, in its normal sense, is best applied to 'balance', 'recovery', 'versatility', 'riding the terrain' etc. - they can't be taught, but come together nicely if those rudiments of technique have been established.

After all it is free

slikedges, I've re-read your original post, and I feel that you were suggesting that it's difficult to learn in your 20's - I don't agree. I think it's a very good age to learn. In the 50's it's a bit different. I would suggest that if you're properly taught to begin with then you would never acquire some of these habits. As to over turning that's not a problem I see frequently, in fact I would suggest that the opposite is true of most recreational skiers - they don't finish their turns. I assume you mean that the person has turned too far and is brought to a halt facing up the hill. Over edging is the same. Again I assume you mean that they are sticking the ski on too radical an edge with too much angle against the snow. this would normally be a by-product of tilting the knee in, and should be corrected asap as it's very bad for your knees! Incidentally I refer to edging as digging in - more beginners seem to relate to that. We also undig (flatten the skis)! (I do eventually tell them that it's really called edging). Little Angel

ski, You really had to do a lot more than just stand on the edge on straight skis! Crying or Very sad

slikedges, I'm with easiski, as far as 20 year old learners go, 2 of my friends learn't in their 20's and picked things up very quickly, to be precise 4, 1 hour dry slope lessons locally and they were happy on the blue slopes of Wengen with me, another half day before shifting to being happyish on reds, that is to say skiing with confidence and control rather than just being able to get down in one piece, by the end of day 1 I'd even tricked them into doing a small part of the Lauberhorn Race track to boost their confidence, after that they never looked back

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To put my twopennyworth in, I think skiing, absolutely is aseasiski, describes.

What the discussion has turned to (seems to me) is what ages are the best to learn at. IMHO, young children (up to 11,12,13) spend their whole time learning, so pick up new skills (within the limits of their developing bodies) easily and quickly.

As soon as they become more aware of themselves, and how others view them, then learning becomes harder - 'cos they don't want to be made to look stupid in front of people whose opinion they value.

Older still and not only do folk not want to look silly, they've also found out that the world hurts when you fall on it....and the older you get, the more it hurts........

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as you get older THE most important thing is being able to stop..
if you can stop at 5 mph you are happy to do 4 mph.. do 6 mph and your back bottom goes as you dont think you can stop.. you whole body stiffens up, you panic and look at the nearest tree to ensure you hit it square on..
if your good add a zero to those numbers wink

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CANV CANVINGTON, If you're very good you can almost double those numbers and add a 0 Shocked

easiski, I was saying that while saying

You know it makes sense.

slikedges, with adults it might depend on their learning style. For some adult beginners, read and understand the instruction and then just do it as specified can be a fast way to learn. Such an adult believes the instructions especially if he/she understands the mechanics involved.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

slikedges, Yes after 1 day of snow plus 4 hours of dry skiing they really were skiing quite well, as to weather or not thats average the answer is probably not, basically I was acting as teacher for 2 students who'd already learn't the basics of turning and stopping, what I did was take them onto the Nursery Slope for about 1 hour to get them nicely warmed up then we did a short easy blue run to the nearby chairlift twice, practicing their technique and building confidence all the time, then we did a moderate red to the same chairlift followed by a 7.5 km blue to our lunch stop, after a leasiurely lunch we went back up an did another easy to moderate red part of which happens to go along the same course as the Lauberhorn Race track which is technically a black but is actually only a red for that section before finally skiing back to the hotel via a short but easy off piste run. Total skiing for the day approximately 25 to 30 km roughly half blue and half red.

I think if the people concerned are reasonably fit and more importantly keen to learn, plus willing to listen to instructions it is easily possible to teach them how to ski safely and confidently in 2 days, but you need a good teacher who can give their students lots of confidence and who can teach rather than someone who's a good skier but may not be a good teacher. It also helps to have fantastic weather and great snow conditions

A snowHead

D G Orf, From my experience of a whole bunch of my friends male and female, all of whom were sporty, who learnt in their early 20's, such progress would seem particularly good. All of the blokes were promoted to the intermediate group (level 2) by the ESF by day 3/4 of the first week on snow, but none of us could have been considered to have good form. On the other hand, none of us had you as our instructor... snowHead

john wells, I read Karl Gamma's The Handbook of Skiing before my first week on snow. Helpful to understand more about the world of skiing but not as helpful as I thought it would be when it came to doing it.

A snowHead

slikedges, it's always significantly faster to make progression if you have 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 ration of students to instructor, that's probably all it comes down to

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

slikedges, I read that book by Ali Ross mentioned by David. I suspect that the type of adult that I am quoting is one who reads the instructions before trying to assemble flat pack furniture - les than 20% of the population if I remember my learning-styles seminar correctly.

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john wells, I read the instructions, unless its ikea, as i've assembled so much of their stuff over the years i could write the instructions.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

slikedges, I can only speak as someone who's been teaching ski-ing professionally (full time) for nearly 30 years. I don't follow a rote or a particular method, but try to learn all the time what works best and adjust my teaching to new discoveries. The principal of turning the ski is that simple.

However, from observation (and you mentioned the ESF), many of the large classes seem to be pushed to turn within the first hour. I don't think this is sensible myself as the beginner can't possibly be balanced and comfortable on their skis that quickly. Balance (straight running and balance excercises first), followed by speed control (snowplough), followed by small drag lift. That's as far as I would expect any beginner to go in the first day - after that they've gained confidence and the second day can start to learn to turn. Using this method I teach people to turn as previously described - they never acquire the bad habits already mentioned. This works with students from 5 (obviously more games for kids) - 80 as far as I can see, and in the end you have a skier who is balanced, understands how the ski works and is confident within the limits of their ability. I would expect a beginner in their 20s learning like this to be able to ski most LDA blues (read red in some places) in good form and control at the end of the 6 day course. Cool

Check out the story of the Tortoise and the Hare. Very Happy

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slikedges, I have had 1 failure Shocked

, in the end we put it down to his dodgy knees, every time he tried to turn at anything above a crawl he basically failed badly, he tried snowboard lessons as well and failed at that to, he wanted to try it but just couldn't manage it because of the pain he was getting through his knees, I've never met anyone else with a similar complaint though, so I imagine it's not common.

As for my other two friends as previously mentioned they'd already learnt the basics of balance, turning and most importantly stopping in their dry slope lessons, one of them had actually just started to parallel turn and the other was only a little behind in skill, all I did was work on those existing skills until they were happy to move onto a steeper slope, I never pushed them into doing anything they were not capable of which would have destroyed their confidence. Big ski classes do work and are cheap but take time, one to one tuition from a competant teacher will accelerate learning tremendously if done properly but are normally very expensive, I was prepared and quite happy to ski at the rate of the slowest skier in my little group, most people on a holiday don't want to teach their friends because it will reduce their time on the slopes, but that year I and both my friends were out skiing for a full month so whats a few days matter snowHead

Help!!

How simple can we make it?

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