What to expect from a ski guide

A snowHead

I have never been off piste with a guide (edit - as a paying client but I have been off piste quite a bit) and it is something I quite fancy, and whilst I do not expect to be taken too far in to the wilderness what should I expect ?

This quote highlights whereby a guide has taken someone (experienced) down a route that the guide has never been down himself and it seems not many have ever been down it - is this normal? responsible? advisable? legal ?

A snowHead

rayscoops, they probably wouldn't do that with you the first time they take you out. however, if you have the ability and get to know the guide, yes, you can expect that sort of thing.

the guide in that eg may not have skied that precise route before (AIUI it was a new route that year because of exceptional snow depths) but he will have known the terrain in that area like the back of his hand. also, guides have an uncanny ability to get the measure of an area really quickly even if they have never been there before - lots of experience and good training

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Sorry to steal the thread, but can I just add a question to the OP, how much would a guide cost (on average) ?

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Arno, first time I would hope not, but does a guide have a duty of care to ski a route first (perhaps with another guide etc) to check it out prior to taking a paying customer down it, especially such a difficult and avalanche prone route ? would insurance been null and void in such circumstances ?

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rayscoops, you will note it is the poster rather than the guide who thought the route was extremely avalanche prone - maybe it was, maybe it wasn't but we don't know what the guide was thinking. from talking to people, the route is not very technically difficult by LG standards. it is pretty easy to pick up details of a route from talking to other guides, locals etc and that is common practice amongst guides. it is also quite common to be told by a guide not to stop in certain places because of objective danger. one of the classic lines at LG (La Voute) is a huge couloir and one branch has seracs overhanging it. you are generally encouraged to tuck in behind a rock band if you want a rest just in case a lump of ice falls down.

all in all, i wouldn't call this experience commonplace and i wouldn't expect it on your first day out with a guide. however, it is something you might build up to if you find a guide you like, you want to do that sort of thing and the guide thinks you can handle it

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Mountain guides spend years training to read the mountain and learning to evaluate conditions. In the mountains there are no guarantees - and objective dangers are part of the environment. However every mountain guide I have ever known has been very risk adverse, and if there is even a small question mark about conditions (or your ability) then they wont go.

The description above sounds like a well known client, with good skill level, being taken down a minor variation of a commonly skied La Grave classic - no big deal.

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After all it is free

Leeds_Skier, the prices I have seen are around 50 Euros per person per half-day. In another thread very recently here on Snowheads someone talked about a five morning off piste course at 250 Euros. Both of these are group prices. For a private session expect to pay more. If a guide normally takes six people at 50 Euros each then they might expect to get most of 300 Euros for a one or two person private.

rayscoops, several times in Val d'Isere our guide has said he has never skied that precise route before. But, he knows the area well and so the route is just a couple of hundred metres different from routes he has skied. Quite often the guide will instruct us to wait whilst he goes ahead to inspect some snow that is out of sight. He may return saying that was no good and then go another way. He may shout that we should follow. Several years ago we did a Tarantaise Tour (Tignes, La Plagne, Les Arcs) but finished in La Gurraz. Part of the final descent involved side stepping down a frozen waterfall - we had fun that day! Later it transpired the guides had not previously skied that area but had been studying their maps. All of the customers were known to the four or five guides of whom two were UAIGM the others very experienced off piste teachers.

I think perhaps there are two issues here, firstly me specifically being guided and with this respect I would expect a guide to gain some opinion on my boarding ability before taking me on certain routes, this would perhaps be by trying out some easier slopes before stepping up to more difficult ones; if a route is easy but the guide has not been down before then I see no problem with that either and I have done this myself many times.

The second issue I suppose is the level of responsibility a guide feels to his client and in the case quoted above it is not that he had not skied the route himself that tiggered something in my mind, it is that no one had skied the route before. Taking clients in to the unknown seems like a risk that perhaps is not really worth the possible 'end game' because it would be difficult for a guide to explain the worst case scenario of a fatality when nobody had ever actually skied such a route; in such a case 'talking to other guides, locals etc' would prehaps not have really resulted in much.

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ARNO is right on a number of points - that was a big La Grave day and we did a fair few classics that day - and for those that don't know, there is only one bubble lift out of La Grave, and that is often when the guides will end up together and discuss what they have done and are going to do - and that's exactly what happened that day - we were only a group of three and two other groups of two had gone before us - that route is a variation on a couple of classics, the only difference is that on those you have to rappel into them.

However you will never do that type of stuff - I've been with Per for well over 10 years, though had only really been back on skis in the past couple of years having snowboarded with him all that time - however up to that day had done a few days with him earlier and had skied with his Mrs last year etc - so he knew what my skill levels on skis now were and he knows I listen - so that run was in effect a culmination of him assessing me. Earlier we had also done Trifide 1 from the top or even 2 I can't remember, plus Les Freaux see Video of the day
http://youtube.com/v/nC2-_7eafyI and just count the number of turns made in the couloir on one small bit of video, think you can see the road at the bottom. In the afternoon (Girosse) the worst bit was getting across the stream at the end as Per had run on to try and get a lift back up to La Grave as we ended up about 5km down the valley.

If another of our mates had been with us Per would NOT have taken us down those routes - you only go as far as the limits of the weakest member of a group.

I have skied with other guides and there are a few I trust having known them for just as long, one was Per's aspirant for 6 years anyway - and a couple are La Grave Frenchies.

This year we were in Morzine and we skied with a guide there and that was a different experience - but as ever the first couple of runs he was sussing us out - even on the Piste then a few gentle traverses into some bowls again all the time seeing what the group was made up of who was strong who was weak, how did the group bond etc

That's why I thnk it's so important to know other members of a group, well it just makes the day more enjoyable- however often you don't have that luxury.

As for cost circa 330 Euro a day - one of the best economic ways is to go to Skiers Lodge in La Grave that's sort of how we started many years ago, all though the lodge is now an old hotel in La Grave, still run by Pelle.

There you will be assessed on your first day and placed in a group of similar abilities and by the end of the first second day you'll all be mates anyway.

In fact just had a look at the site http://www.skierslodge.com/ and this is a great quote that stood out bearing in mind the original question of this thread.

"Careful thought is given to the itineraries that are chosen for each day. The goal is to keep clients challenged by the terrain, but not terrified by the surroundings."

As a sort of postscript to this - we always have a week with Per and few years back the other halves came with us as well, not to be with us & Per but in their own group, snow was so dire and a few days we did other stuff, Via Ferrata, Climbing etc but we were blessed with a final day where it had rained most of the day before but snowed up top and the next day Blue Sky and I still recall the excitement and enthusiasm of the Girlies as they had such a great time, all be it a wee bit scary / adrenalin rush for them (so they said) whilst blasting down the glacier sticking to Philous tracks skiing pass the crevaces.......but that's what it's all about, and my Mrs still talks about that day!

Though have just re-read Haggis Trap's comments - wouldn't say off Girosse / Órciére is commonly skied - as conditions are not always good enough to warrant it - I've probably only done them 3 or 4 times in 12 years.......

Anyway this page had all the classic routes http://www.skierslodge.com/legend/# and the descriptions detail why you need to ski with a guide and one that does know the routes!

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rayscoops, it had been skied before but not by many people and no-one had done it before that season. as for the end game, the worst thing that could happen (putting avalanche and rockfall to one side) is that the couloir didn't go. in those circumstances, you either abseil over the bit that doesn't go (the guide would certainly have the necessary kit with him for that) or you climb back out. the client's reaction to these is something which the giude would bear in mind when choosing his route. some clients may have a total sense of humour failure; others might put it down to one of those things that happen when you are being adventurous and an opportunity to pull the guide's leg.

as to actual first descents, not everyone is interested in that sort of thing but I would love to claim the first descent of something* and the element of the unknown is one of the attractions

*I may have the first ski descent of Camden Road, London NW1 but I have been unable to verify this Wink

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Weathercam, my concern is not so much that a guide would take me down such routes, or that a guide would not notice the limits of a weaker member of the group etc etc. It is more with respect to the specifics of this case whereby a guide would take paying members of the public down a route that had not previously been skied by anyone (edit - or just skied by a few that week etc), never mind himself, or am I off the mark on this particular point and that this is not uncommon or out of the ordinary ?

edit Arno - yes it is the first descent thing really that I am getting at, especially as Weathercam skied off a cliff the very next day, and it all seems a bit, well, reckless really.

I do recognise and take comfort that it does seem that I would not be put in such a circumstance on my first guided off piste though Very Happy

My own opinion is that there is no issue with a guide taking you somewhere they haven't been before. The guide's training and experience is about being able to judge conditions in the mountains on their own merit, not about knowing one specific area by heart.

In my own case as an IML, I wouldn't have any qualms about leading a group up a mountain that I hadn't personally climbed before. It does change slightly how you approach things, but it's not a show-stopper.

I'm also a mountain-bike guide and that is slightly different as it's very hard to know how technically difficult a trail is unless you've been down it yourself. Once or twice I've taken a group down a trail that I don't know but which has been recommended to me by someone I trust, but even that doesn't always end well!

Cost wise, the going rate is around 350€ per day, can be as high as 500€ in some places.

You know it makes sense.

I've used a guide on relatively few accations, so I'm still new to it myself.

I've had three different guides and all three first took me down an easy bit of off piste and watched me to see if I could actually ski.

I must have fooled them, because they then set off into a bit more fun stuff. Nothing too gnarly, but depending on how you cope it may get even more fun.

You may get a bit of mountaincraft thrown in. But it's like a lesson with no teaching, or like skiing with a mate who knows his spuds and also knows the area like the back of his hand.

It is fun and not to be worried about. Most are suprised that Brit punters are past the snowplough stage anyway.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Ray yeah your'e a wee bit of the mark - most Guides I know wouldn't want clients with them for selfish reasons if only to do it on their own and have a blast with out the worry of a client. In fact the two groups before us were exactly those. One guide and his friend, and a couple of Swedish La Grave locals of old..........

Don't get hung up over this - never never would it happen.

Though are you on a board?

There can be a few issues there if you have a guide who is not boarder friendly and you're in a mixed group - there was a thread on this last week.

Thread here http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=67458

We once had a real jerk of a guide and it still winds me up (and probably my mate) thinking about him and what he put us through one day in Serre, though as ever must have been good in a crazy way as we still remember it!

A snowHead

brian

I guess it's always worth remembering these guys are human as well and they don't always get it right. The mountain doesn't know you're a guide. Skullie

http://blog.i-g.ch/index.php?post/2007/02/18/22-l-avalanche

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

All, My weakness/strength is perhaps that I would try to go down anything put in front of me and I would be ok with that (Swiss Wall, Tortins etc), however I would be relying on the guide to make sure my lack of mountain knowledge (north/south facing, incline/loose snow/overhangs etc) woud not put be in danger and a worry was the reference to a guide taking some one down a relatively un-skied slope, but perhaps it is just my lack of knowledge of the experience such a guide would have to safely undertake such a route 'un-tried' that has muddied the waters somewhat

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Swirly, the point was that the particularly route had never been skied ever by anyone - not recently but ever !! or at least only a few days before for the first ever time. I am all for first and clean tracks but maybe not quite to this degree Little Angel

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

rayscoops, I have had a couple of climbing mates who went on to become guides. One an excellent skier who has lived many years in the Chamonix valley, the other an excellent Mountaineer who struggles on skis. Horses for courses, choose wisely.

Another myth is that having a guide somehow provides an invisible umbrella of invincibility. Read this article-
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/ensa-overhauls-guide-training-following-deaths/

Being with a guide who knows the area can open up great possibilities and offer much higher levels of security, and IMHO is money well spent, potentially for a day out that you will remember all your life, especially compared to money spent in the pub that you won't remember the next morning. What you state above as your expectation are IMV spot on. However for a guide to take a client on a "first decent" unless they had specifically ask for that seems wrong. I suspect he was lost!

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I presume this is the line in question:

http://blog.news.skierslodge.com/?p=205#comments

The only exceptional thing about this is that someone was lucky enough to catch the line in condition. Looks like there was a bit of "do it while you can" going on.

The only other point I'd make here is that what you are hiring with a guide is mountain sense and skills. You are buying the time of someone who is trained to operate safely in unfamiliar terrain if the need arises. Obviously it is desirable that they know the area well but that isn't primarily what they are there for.

After all it is free

Weathercam, nice to develop that kind of long term relationship with a guide.

rayscoops, I think I'd trust all the guides I've skied with to take me into something they had not skied before. You can usually see them continually evaluating the group, the terrain, the weather, the escape routes.

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rayscoops, I guess having had the answers from the team on here, perhaps the question you need to ask is not as per your OP, "What should I expect?" but "why am I considering going out with a guide - what's in it for me? "

As well as a humbling realisation of my own limitations, this thread does highlight that going off-piste with a guide is about a mind-set and attitude - it isn't for everyone, and there is no shame in admitting that. But like everything, there are degrees, and the stuff these guys are on about seems to be at one (extreme) end of the spectrum.

I've done a couple of days with a guide in Les Arcs - stuff I wouldn't have skied on my own, stuff I wouldn't have known existed. At the time, that for me was all I wanted - you could amost equate it to a piste guide showing a newcomer around the resort, but clearly from a very different perspective (and a wee bit more thrilling).

Next time however, I think I could chance something a little more challenging... but that will be up to Vincent, not me.

So, decide what YOU want to get out of it, and then make sure your guide knows what you want.

They will then make sure they know what you can do and marry the two together.

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Expect a big bill.

You know it makes sense.

rayscoops, You're overthinking this. If it had been you or I or anyone else the guide had not extensive experience of he wouldn't have taken the route. Ski regularly with someone and they'll know your strengths and weaknesses. Think of it as you showing a less able mate around an area you know well. you don't have to have skied every piste or gully or face to know roughly what they are like, where they go to etc and equally you'll probably stretch your mate within his/her capabilities without knackering them out or going somewhere they can't get down.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

fatbob, I think that sums it up quite well, and the guide in question would have seen the slope from other positions etc and have a good feel for what it will be like even though he had not actually been down it himself; it sounds like it has not be skied much more to do with lack of snow coverage rather than anything else, such as 'factor 10 gnarl' ! Very Happy

A snowHead

JimW, fresh tracks is all I ever want Very Happy

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

But there are old bald guides........

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I have read this thread with interest.

I am not sure I agree that a guide should take a person somewhere he has never skied. I had the experience of this in La Plagne a few seasons ago.

The guide came over from Courchevel, was leading us (four people) down a route which I knew had a waterfall half way down. I was the tale marker. I waited for him to cut right as I thought the snow conditions were not good enough to ski the fall that day. When he did not stop and continued into the narrow gap. I stopped above and also got the person below me to stop and told him why. The guide was to far in front for me to alert him of my concerns. He stopped just above the fall and then those that had followed him down had a very tricky climb back up as it was impossible to ski the fall as I suspected. They were lucky nobody slipped. We then did the high traverse out above the falls. In good conditions you can drop over this fall, I would have expected him to be aware of the conditions that day and know it was not possible. It was clear he had not checked in advance.

This mistake made me realise that it is really important to know the conditions of the day and the local snow history very well. Local knowledge is very important. I knew this guide from Courchevel. I have skied with him before in his own patch where he is very good, but it shows that even with all there training, they need to check things out very well in advance to avoid difficulties. So Guides can and do make mistakes sometimes.

rayscoops, in response to your question. I would advise always making the guide very clear on what you want out of the day with him when you book. Many guides are Ski Instructors or Boarders as well. If you are on a board it is better to be with one on a board I think. Just be clear what you want. He should not take risks with your life. Remember you can always tell a guide you do not want to ski a route he suggests if you do not like the idea. They should have an alternative option if they know the area well. Much better than getting half way down then finding it is to hard and freezing up or even worse, falling and getting hurt.

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After the recent tragedy in Val D has anyone changed their views on this issue. If an avalanche on a well skied off (side of) piste area with an experienced guide (who has probably skied the route on a weekly basis) is such a possibility, then should an experienced guide be exposing his paying clients (I am not talking about matching skiers ability to a particular slope, that should be a given in all circumstances) to a couloir route that he has no experience of at all and that has only ever been skied by a few people ever in its entire history because of lack of snow? How could he possibly know what the snow base would be like on that particular day without any experience of it and probably without having spoken to anyone with much experience of it?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

achilles, I think I and most skiers/boarders would trust them too - it is what we are paying for after all - but my question was whether it is professional for a guide to select such a route in such circumstances, whether their clients have trust in them or not.

so ok guys, a scenario ....

you meet your guide at breakfast, very experienced, and he says he is going to take you down a coulior he has never skied in his 15 years of guiding in Le Grave, infact he has not really spoken to anyone who has skied it before because normally there is not enough snow, but he thinks everyone has the skill to ski it, he then advises that there are only a few places where you can not stop and that the route was only recently discovered by a climber, hence why he has never skied it himself.

So ... bearing in mind this is not just a normal bit of standard off piste that he has not skied before - would you say yes, I trust you lets go, or would you ask him whetehr perhaps he should have skied it himself first from a safety point of view before taking others down it?

To the instructors here too, would you take your client on an expert level off piste lesson down such a route that you had not skied before ?

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ray - yes I would.

The guide in the incident at Valdisere is only a ski instructor basically. The guides in la grave are full mountain guides and will be carrying stuff for any abseils etc and trained to use it.

I only use high mountain guides that are recommended or very well know
ie - Neil Mcnab, Rick Marchant, Phillipe Andre, Seb Montaz and Simon Christy(although not a full mountain guide I have full trust in him)
also generally in small private groups with my friends - as I would say we are like the steep terrain and pushing ourselves which involves a higher level of client/guide trust.

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What to expect from a ski guide

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