Obviously this completely depends on the instructor but from my experiences so far, I've improved far more without lessons, just skiing with by better skier OH.
1st experience - summer glacier, very small groups. Stymied by boot agony, couldn't find a hire boot I could wear for more than 1 hour. All too big, too tall (mens' type) and I had no idea what the problem was, neither did slender OH! Eventually got over fear of speed by fear of thunderstorm, so marked improvement on last 2 days.
2nd experience - ESF group, La Rosiere. Pretty good experience, had bought boots in the mean time - thanks CEM! Happy on reds/blues, didn't particularly enjoy first black, but it didn't kill me, at least it made me judge the piste by the conditions rather than the marker colour, hence doing a black at all (OH's idea) as it was far more fun than one or two of the easy blues. Instructor on final day spotted why I couldn't side slip at all (hip position), started work on short radius turns.
3rd experience - ESF group, Tignes. A bit so so. Sorting hat on first day put me in "top" group of class 2. Sorting hat was large radius turns down a nice wide, steep blue, which I really enjoyed, and was rather flattering to me. Some work on short radius turns, not a problem, some work on off piste stuff, not a problem. BUT to avoid the steep black piste (which looked absolutely fine to me - it was really nice and wide with no nasty edges), we got taken down this horrible (to me) narrow cat track, which I fell over on about 4 times (too close to snow side of piste). Also struggled with moguls (couldn't turn on demand), and more/fresher snow. Would have been far happier in the group below. Spent most of the afternoons skiing with OH and other friends, rebuilding confidence and enjoying nice steep wide blacks and reds, and avoiding narrow flat stuff (and especially narrow steep stuff)
4th experience - no lessons, Courchevel. Really loved it. Not being in lessons meant we could work on my weaknesses (basically being scared of the "edge" even when there is no reason to be scared) by dropping off the edge of the piste where appropriate, playing on nice wide things (where necessary pre-scouted by OH while I sat with a drink somewhere) and I coped fine with bumpy stuff (not proper moguls - Combe Saulire in Courchevel at the end of the day) in flat light, and was able to laugh about it when it went wrong! We also did the odd bit of flat narrow blue that needs some speed, and some narrower reds when I felt confident and up for it - OH is pretty good at reading my mood! By the end of the week I really felt I had improved in my comfort level with being in the mountains, so I was less tense, skiing was much less like hard work and I felt like I had improved (I would not have coped with Combe Saulire the previous week).
Obviously it helps that my OH is pretty good about prescouting stuff, and knows what I like least of all - he can also pander to me. I wouldn't be in a position to do what I have without the previous instruction either - certainly the hip position issue for side slipping wouldn't have gone away, but there don't seem to be any "technical" limiting factors to my skiing. Long term I need to imrpove edge control and feel, but most of all I need to relax, and improve my general suppleness, especially my calf muscles, unitl I do that, my skiing will always be limited, regardless of the standard of the intsructor.
Given my major issue are confidence related, barring a visit to a particular instructor for private lessons, it would feel like a waste to get lessons becuase so much is pot luck and I struggle with the pressure of paying for a lesson - and get more tense! This is far worse in a group situation as I feel like I am wasting someone else's money by being pathetic/scared of silly stuff and get more worked up!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
For me private lessons were the key to making everything that I had learned in weeks of group lessons click and build confidence.
I now find that one or two private lessons (with time between to practice) at the start of the week help me iron out bad habits and I can dictate the pace and what I would like to cover (so no confidence shattering playing catchup). Private lessons are more expensive but if you get a good instructor and are clear about what you would like to cover they can be great at giving you plenty to practice in your own time. I think time on the slopes having fun is the best way to learn though, which it sounds like you are starting to do anyway as it gives you time to work on one or two things at a time rather than overloading your brain with 'do this, then that, then the other'
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Randomsabreur wrote:
it would feel like a waste to get lessons becuase so much is pot luck...
You can reduce the pot luck factor of group lessons by choosing a ski school with a good reputation, which in my experience tends to be the smaller ski school rather than the large 'official' school. Obviously there are plenty of great instructors in large ski schools, but also plenty who aren't so good so unless you are going for a private lesson with an instructor that you know/recommended to you I'd say try a smaller ski school to see if you have a more positive experience.
I'd agree with grottieottie. either private lessons or a specialised clinic such as the ones run by Phil Smith or Inspired to Ski. Not dead basic group lessons.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
Randomsabreur wrote:
it would feel like a waste to get lessons becuase so much is pot luck...
You can reduce the pot luck factor of group lessons by choosing a ski school with a good reputation, which in my experience tends to be the smaller ski school rather than the large 'official' school. Obviously there are plenty of great instructors in large ski schools, but also plenty who aren't so good so unless you are going for a private lesson with an instructor that you know/recommended to you I'd say try a smaller ski school to see if you have a more positive experience.
I'll second that, small set-up offering a tailor made service is what you need.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hurtle wrote:
skierchris,
Quote:
small set-up offering a tailor made service
I know a ski-instructor just like that.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Randomsabreur, I started with instructors, and never got over the fear factor enough to even make it down the shortest blue without quaking. I was repeatedly told on here that more skills as taught by instructors should give me the skills to get over the fear. I understand that is the case for most people, but to this day I don't think it was what worked for me. I needed time and distance on slopes with people prepared to cajole and encourage me just to go ahead and ski regardless of technique. Once I became confident enough to tackle a modest slope I got a whole lot more out of a lesson because I had the confidence to be able to apply the techniques and drills without fear of the fact that I was going down a slope in the first place. I have to budget for lessons, but I find that I get on best doing lots of skiing on different slopes becoming more confident than I have been before and then going for the lessons which help me refine the technique on the slopes that I have the new found confidence on. My skiing partner errr.......encourages positivity in my skiing, but I don't think would deliberately let me take on more than I was capable of - though of course in some new ski areas you just can't know what's round the next time the first time you ski it. He tends not to take 'no' for an answer, which I guess is correct, because there are not many situations where you can back out of skiing something and I guess somehow you have to get down.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Megamum, Any lesson should really give you the technique to then try something more adventurous on your own. Lessons only give you blueprint to practice with... you do then indeed complete the whole learning process on your own. Nothing like getting stuck and then working out how to get down... and then realising that 'if only' you had applied teh skills you would have done it in style... and that's how the addiction starts
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Lessons only give you blueprint to practice with...
Absolutely. One of the good things about having a whole heap of useful skills exercises to practice is that whenever you're waiting for someone to fiddle with their ski boots, or go to the loo, or going very slowly down a "home time" cat track, etc etc etc there's something useful you can do. My OH, for example (apart from being an inveterate faffer) has to do quite regular blood tests (diabetic) and one of the things I often practice when waiting is that side slip on the uphill ski (one of rob@rar's efforts). It's excellent because it's quite hard, it needs concentration, it's different every time you try it (different snow etc) and you cover very little ground, whilst waiting. "Falling leaf" side slips, 180 side slips (both on Fastman's DVDs) are other exercises to try. On the slow runs you can lift legs (one at a time is preferable....), hop the tails, etc etc etc. Just no excuse for ever being bored. But I find I need to get into a routine of practising. It's so easy not to bother, and just to ski down fairly mindlessly. It's perfectly possible to spend weeks and weeks skiing around and not get any better at it at all. Whether that matters, obviously, depends on what your objective is. I've been swimming on and off since I was 12 and haven't got any better at it since I was about 14. Not a problem for me - but I'd be very disappointed if I couldn't ski better after 20 years at it than I could after 10, and I am 100% convinced that that would be the case if I hadn't continued to have (the right sort of) lessons.
Practice AFTER the lesson - and before the next one - is certainly a key.
the dichotomy between "lessons" or "just skiing around" is a false one, in my view. You need time in the saddle, but it does help if it's focussed. But clearly, if you're too scared to do anything at all, then lessons focussed on skills are not going to be much use to you.
some people can certainly get better just by skiing with good skiers and watching and copying them. Not sure I could, though.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I guess different people react to different stimuli, so perhaps watching good skiers and then copying them may be enough. However, when errors do creep in, is there likely to be enough technical knowledge to eradicate the problem? 1:1 is the way to go IMHO. When the technique is drilled in sufficiently to understand the basic principles, watching and learning from others may become a more practical solution over time.
Other than that, pam w has some good suggestions about technique practice which can be good fun.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
In my view experience is a key element of improving, but also the odd specific tailored lesson also helps to tune areas and prevent you getting into bad habits (which are very hard to loose, believe me!!)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm definitely planning to get lessons again, just probably not this year. The biggest stress factor for me is to be wasting money, especially other peoples. I'm looking at skiing as I would any other sport - what is blocking me from improvement. At the moment, that is not the technical errors - I can go as fast as I want, I can stop effectively in the length of my skis. The major blocks are fitness related (sort calf suppleness - work in progress) and fear related (admittedly causing major pain/cramp in my feet as I screw up my toes when I'm tense). Neither of those will be solved with anything other than general familiarity and my OH is a total superstar about not taking me down things that are too far out of my comfort zone (i.e. not narrow and above a cliff!) so I fail to see the point of lessons until I have solved the fear issue, hopefully by the season after next...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Randomsabreur, from a confidence/fear perspective, some of the toughest skiing I've done is in lessons is when I've been happy to trust the instructor to take me outside of my comfort zone but not outside my ability zone. The fact that I could ski in these conditions helped to expand my comfort zone (as well as providing the opportunity to test and develop my skills on steep terrain). It's great that your OH can do this for you, but you should also expect a good instructor to do the same. If you're not getting that kind of experience in ski lessons it's probably time to find a different ski school.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I do think part of the issue is my OH is good at reading ME. He knows when to back off, when to give me a good kick up the behind, when to be sympathetic and when to put his fingers in his ears and ignore the bad language.. I can't expect a ski instructor to do this the first time they've met me.
When I was competing seriously at fencing, I found I performed best when I had him "coaching" me from the side of the piste. He more or less knew which end of the sabre to hold so had no knowledge of what to do - what he could do was put me in the mental state that meant I was best able to sort out what I should be doing, calming me down, making a off colour joke about something so I got out of the self-destructive, "I can't do this" state of mind.
I seem to be making myself sound like a bit of a loon, but tbh I know that most of my "fears" skiing are irrational. The edge I'm terrified of is no different to a change in pitch on a steep slope (flat stop followed by steeper section), but in my mind, the piste markers mark the edge of a yawning abyss! Tears are often my reaction to stress, but generally sympathy won't snap me out of it, a large boot in the behind will and I don't think many strangers would be brave enough to tell a crying young lady to stop being a wuss and get on with it, or bet me a hot chocolate that I can't do something...
When we're over the fear of heights stuff (I've started climbing and done a lot more scrambling since last year's holiday), then I will start getting more lessons and working on my technique - I've only been skiing 3 weeks in winter, but I can feel when my weight is in the wrong place (probably fencing/riding) and know how to correct it (definitely more from fencing than riding). The more subtle stuff can come when I'm not distracted by an irrational fear and not going to be wasting half the lesson wishing my feet would stop killing me so much. I am happy with the fit of my boots - they only hurt when I screw up my feet, or I forgot to stretch my calves before putting them on in the morning.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Randomsabreur wrote:
I do think part of the issue is my OH is good at reading ME. He knows when to back off, when to give me a good kick up the behind, when to be sympathetic and when to put his fingers in his ears and ignore the bad language.. I can't expect a ski instructor to do this the first time they've met me.
No, you can't expect an instructor to assess what you are capable of psychologically the first time you meet. But they should be able to tell what you are technically capable off within just a few turns. So a decent instructor will be able to push you within that "capability zone"; whether you can put your faith in them and follow where they suggest is something that only you can decide.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Randomsabreur, if you're a fencer you might have specially strong muscles up the front of your leg (can't remember what they're called) from all that lunging. My sister had a problem as a teenager and needed a bit of minor surgery to slit the muscle sheath - and even now, when she hasn't fenced for years and years, she still has some problems with that muscle when walking. she found she was tended to fling her leading leg out a bit in front (hard to describe.....). One thing she found that helped a lot was MBT shoes. Plus plenty of stretching.
The fear of "edges" is a difficult one - my BiL suffers from it and we have to think hard about where to take him. He's not a great skier anyway, but he has some solid technique to get down blue and red runs, but his technique goes to bits if he can sense an "edge" nearby. You're brave to go scrambling.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Randomsabreur, I recognise the large boot in the behind - my ski partner has a tendency to get 'blunt' with me when he knows I can ski something and I'm trying to convince myself that I can't, particularly if we are already in an untennable position (I recall one day on a wind swept VT slope in a howling gale when we got up and the easy way down was closed). He was right, I was able to ski it once I got going. BTW you are not alone with a fear of the edge and the overhang. I comprehend and myself will very much hang to mountain, even it means ploughing in places (the top section of Aiguille rouge - Les Arcs springs to mind as a piece that I went down very gingerly - skied a little bit then an almost hockey stop to slow down - repeat). I know where you are!!
I comprehend and myself will very much hang to mountain, even it means ploughing in places (the top section of Aiguille rouge - Les Arcs springs to mind as a piece that I went down very gingerly - skied a little bit then an almost hockey stop to slow down - repeat. I know where you are!!
I think this is exactly the kind of situation where technique is key, and where the right instructor will be able to help a lot. That dive down the mountain goes against every bit of "commonsense" in the brain. I did a black run with easiski - I already did have a basic dive technique, which I thought was OK, but I wasn't doing it enough, or at quite the right time. She got me going much better, but then I had to go off and practice and practice on my own and still on a bad day, when vis is poor, or the snow a bit cr@p, or whatever, it deserts me and I'm back to stopping every couple of turns, just to collect wits. I could do with another lesson on exactly that sort of terrain, actually - and will be able to make better use of it after the practice I've done on my own. Learning to ski is an iterative process - and it's not always easy to sort out when to practice and when to have a lesson. Nor is it always easy to find the right instructor just when and where you want them!!
I do find Fastman's DVDs useful - not a substitute for a real person, but a great supplement, and because the explanations and demos are very clear you can work on them on your own without much danger of developing bad habits (because the exercises are kind of self-limiting e.g. if your weight and edging isn't right you won't be able to do 180 side slips so you know perfectly well you're doing it wrong and can go back to the DVD to find out the right way).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w, 'Dive technique' That's a new one on me - I don't want to railroad this thread so have started another in this forum - I would be interested in an explanation if you have the time please.
Megamum, if you lean in to the hill (probably because you are anxious about the steepness) it is going to make it more difficult to start the next turn, will make your control of the ski's edges more difficult and may well lead to the tails of your skis skidding out at the end of the turn. You want to avoid all those situations. One mental image is that when you start the turn you "dive down the hill", which helps make a good transition from one turn to the next.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Randomsabreur wrote:
I do think part of the issue is my OH is good at reading ME. He knows when to back off, when to give me a good kick up the behind, when to be sympathetic and when to put his fingers in his ears and ignore the bad language.. I can't expect a ski instructor to do this the first time they've met me.
This seems more a matter of knowing one another - that may not necessarily be a good thing in terms of learning. For example, my mother taught me to read and, whilst I respected her, I daresay I was more attentive to my teacher when I went to school (at least for a while )
My point is that, whilst your instructor should be able to determine your ability and required tuition focus, your relationship with an effective stranger who is there to teach, should bring about a determination in you, the person under instruction, to move out of the personal comfort zone that you experience with your OH. As long as the instructor is reasonable, you should make good progress and be able to demonstrate that to your OH, hopefully to the enjoyment of you both.
After all it is free
After all it is free
grottieottie wrote:
For me private lessons were the key to making everything that I had learned in weeks of group lessons click and build confidence.
I now find that one or two private lessons (with time between to practice) at the start of the week help me iron out bad habits and I can dictate the pace and what I would like to cover (so no confidence shattering playing catchup). Private lessons are more expensive but if you get a good instructor and are clear about what you would like to cover they can be great at giving you plenty to practice in your own time. I think time on the slopes having fun is the best way to learn though, which it sounds like you are starting to do anyway as it gives you time to work on one or two things at a time rather than overloading your brain with 'do this, then that, then the other'
Two years ago I had booked one on one lessons for my 3 year old to learn to ski, she did not want to go. I took the lessons instead, not wanting to waste the deposit. I can say I was blown away, I learned more in those 2 hours then all the time skiing with my other half ( competent on blacks/ moguls) to the extent I booked more lessons both for me and my OH, I learned control and confidence and she learned how to use her skills to go faster. Yes lessons are expensive , but compared with the cost of a family ski holiday in a chalet, where I am going to get maybe 36 hours of skiing in , a couple of hundred euros is not going to kill me. Being able to ski pretty much anywhere my wife wants to is fantastic, albeit not quiet with her abilties.
My point is an insructor will give you the skills to improve your skiing and make it more fun. Your other half is not going to be as critical of your abilties and may not have the correct skill set to teach you.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Randomsabreur wrote:
I do think part of the issue is my OH is good at reading ME. He knows when to back off, when to give me a good kick up the behind, when to be sympathetic and when to put his fingers in his ears and ignore the bad language.. I can't expect a ski instructor to do this the first time they've met me.
I wouldn't say he was "teaching" me. I'd say he was skiing with me, we discuss routes, talk to each other (mostly about random stuff) and ski around the resort, enjoying ourselves. Occasionally I deposit myself in a cafe/bar and watch/relax while he zooms off and has some fun/checks out something that looks interesting/fun/potentially scary. If I have a wobbly moment about something (like narrow piste, ice, bumps, feet hurting, scary lift) he'll get me going again - bribery with hot chocolate/ chocolate from his rucksack often works. This just a "nice" person skiing with me, looking after the less experienced person, not an instructor - I'd expect far more from any instructor
The main improvement in my skiing has come from my confidence improving.
Admittedly we're not skiing this year as OH has a knee injury - not skiing related, so I will probably be wanting lessons when we do ski next year.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Randomsabreur wrote:
I wouldn't say he was "teaching" me. I'd say he was skiing with me, we discuss routes, talk to each other (mostly about random stuff) and ski around the resort, enjoying ourselves. Occasionally I deposit myself in a cafe/bar and watch/relax while he zooms off and has some fun/checks out something that looks interesting/fun/potentially scary. If I have a wobbly moment about something (like narrow piste, ice, bumps, feet hurting, scary lift) he'll get me going again - bribery with hot chocolate/ chocolate from his rucksack often works. This just a "nice" person skiing with me, looking after the less experienced person, not an instructor - I'd expect far more from any instructor
The main improvement in my skiing has come from my confidence improving.
Admittedly we're not skiing this year as OH has a knee injury - not skiing related, so I will probably be wanting lessons when we do ski next year.
Sounds like you enjoy skiing together, thats probably the most important bit.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I wasted about 5 years when I started skiing with my mates, of the "just do this school".
Then I learnt about BASI instructors in the alps. I had not realised I had so much to learn.
That was twenty five years and a million lessons ago and I'm still learning!
Needless to say I can now blow my initial tutors out of the water!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
This has me thinking about my 6 year old who I have largely taught to ski.
Would he have been better learning with an instructor? Yes absolutely, but he was a beginner and that is a crucial time to get good instruction.
Would he have been better in a small group with other skiers at his level? Yes I think peer pressure is a good thing.
To continue with the point about family / friend teaching. If they are a good skier they can often, like an instructor, identify your level and see what you are doing wrong in a couple of turns but they may not have the baggage of techniques and drills to correct those faults and get you to improve. I think that is a key difference. Obviously getting a 6 year old to improve and a 66 year old (or whatever) are different things
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
That's a new one on me - I don't want to railroad this thread so have started another in this forum - I would be interested in an explanation if you have the time please.
)
