Its all in the knee?

A snowHead

One observation I had from skiing last week was that my turns were cleaner and more dynamic when I focused specifically on driving my inside knee. I haven't thought specifically about why this is (other than will naturally reduce A framing, + anything driving will reduce against a backseat tendency).

Have I discovered the secret of skiing? Do I need to patent my inside knee method and disparage anyone else who refuses to drink my cool aid?
(Fatbob's Universal Inside Knee MEthod FUIK ME tm)

A snowHead

fatbob, where and how do you drive your knee?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

That was one of the tips that i learned when in Canada a couple of years ago. That and angulation.

At the weekend up at Cairngorm, i spent most of my day concentrating on using the upper legs and hips to turn rather than just the feet. Felt great when it came off, just wondering if it worked. I was hitting the breaks a little in this turn (group sitting in middle of piste just ahead) so not quite as relaxed as normal turning.

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fatbob, if you start getting all technical you'll be skiing on your own Wink

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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fatbob, it probably also helps you keep the inside ski engaged with the snow.. you might be sometimes picking up the inner ski which is an old school trait and by focusing on the knee perhaps you kept em both on the deck

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

also helps with excessive inner tip lead for me. wasn't there a thread about that somewhere?

After all it is free

how do you drive your inside kn Puzzled

ee ?

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Two edges are better than one.

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Can be good, if you end up like this:

Or this:

Not so good if you perpetually end up like this:

See what I'm saying?

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FastMan, you mean not like the Tin Man? wink

I've been focussing really hard on that inside knee too, as I tend to drag my inside ski and A frame. I've been trying not to think about the outside ski at all, let it follow, because if I think about getting that one on an edge it always ends up at a higher angle than the inside one.

I spent a few minutes on a beautifully pisted run with soft new snow a couple of days ago, just doing half turns and trying to get two nice carved tracks. Succeeded around 40% of the time, if that. Was better one way than the other, but can't remember which, now. Mostly I was "doing too much", I think. Could have done with you or rob@rar telling me precisely what I was doing wrong.

FastManNot sure I could do knee angulation like that at any speed without bolts and string pinging out of the junkshow that is my knees.

You know it makes sense.

fatbob,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I do try to make the pertinent elements in my demos easy to see. Smile

The point is, don't drive both knees, in driving one. Keep the outside leg long and strong. Let inside knee drive pull the pelvis into the turn, not the outside knee. Each is a possibility. For those not yet comfortable with allowing the Center of Mass to move far inside the feet, versions of the lower pic can be the result. Imagine someone skiing A-framed, then just tipping the inside knee.

When done properly, inside knee flex and drive are valuable components of good turing mechanics. And yep, it can be a catalyst for positive change in a person's skiing, as it was yours. Just bewared the trap I mention here.

A snowHead

Intersting.

I can see how this would avoid the habit of having a lazy inside ski that drifts in or presents a flat base if you put all your concentration on your outside leg and kind of switch off thinking about your inside leg.

I got told off for lifting my inside ski and having my skis too close together. I had a go at correcting it by concentrating on my inside foot and keeping edge contact. Perhaps if I concentrate in having my knee correctly postioned, the rest will follow along as if it's attached, which it is.

Regarding the third picture. Okay, I can see that it doesn't look as good as the other two. Less dynamic, just less good, but could you analyse for me the particular fault that is making me see it that way ? I can see that the pelvis is turned in the first two pictures. The hands and hence the shoulders are less turned in the last picture. the degree of edging in the first and third pictures looks similar, but the effect will depend on the speed, the gradient and the radius of the turn.

Finally, when driving the knee, is it helpful to imagine George Osborne standing on the fron of your ski so that you can express your appreciation of the VAT rise with a sharp thrust of the knee ?

A snowHead

thirty06, your knees aren't made to bend that way, but your hips are - it's not a generally advantageous way to create edge angle.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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pam w, I think thirty06 means keeping the inside ski in contact with the snow.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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thirty06, as rob@rar says, it's the weirdly bent (angulated) outside knee that's the problem in the last picture. It's an inherently weaker stance for bearing the forces of a turn that the straighter leg is in the hip angulation examples. It will also limit how high you can put a modern ski on edge, because it doesn't move the Center of Mass far enough inside the feet to maintain lateral balance as edge angles grow. Worked great in the old days on straight skis, when high edge angles didn't produce sharp turns, but not today.

Knee angulation still has usage, at very slow speeds, at times on longer radius skis, and as a supplemental tool to be used in combination with hip angulation, for fine tuning turn shape and/or balance. it's when it's a person singular or primary way of putting their skis on edge that a problem exists.

pam w, love the "Tin Man" comment.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rob@rar, I'm not really sure if you're agreeing with me or just disagreeing by repeating what I said in longer words Wink

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All who commented.

Yes, that's it. After I was told off, I noticed that my inside ski was indeed becoming light and drifting in, more so after I thought about it. Isn't that just the way. I reckon I'll need both skis in contact in case the outer one slips.

So, the 'WRONG' stance is a knee turn as opposed to a hip turn ? C'mon, there's nothing wrong with a nice set of knee turns. I'm pretty sure I saw Tomba do something similar once or twice.

Come to think of it, I do recall advice along the lines of 'Try to tuck your outer knee behind the inner' Which results in the kind of stance we see in the top two pictures and the jolly sensation of swapping your knees over. Possibly also a narower stance than is regarded as de rigeur in polite circles these days.

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rob@rar, better still, curse that you took up skiing so bloody early, before the dawn of shape skis, in the days when knee angulation was a must. Dang lucky kids these days, never have to unlearn what we were so good at.

Hmm...

In the seond pic, an observer might say that the rear knee is behind the front knee. Possibly one of these chinese whisper things where an instructor mistakes an instruction and propagates poor form. A bit like "Keep your weight forward so that you are in contact with the front of the boot at all times.

Anyway, I tried it out yesterday and it didn't do my turns any harm. Both skis came off the ground when I made particularly vigorous transistions.

I'm not sure that my upper body was correct. I felt a bit tight about the lower back and may have been resisting the action that I ought to have made to achive the full angulation.

Help!!

Its all in the knee?

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