 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I agree, it's a decent article, and better then many similar things I've read recently.
Obviously it's skewed towards the specific ski areas the author visited, which are at the busier / glitzier / bigger / pricier end of the spectrum.
Would have liked to see some more specific figures to better illustrate the bigger / smaller differences.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
pretty good. Epic/Ikon (Well, Ikon anyway where we are, presume Epic the same) bringing lots of Americans into town.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Well researched article. I've met a few Americans in the wrong part of the ski area at closing time
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Yes, it's a reasonably good article that does not remotely justify the word "SHOCKING" apart from the one about ending in the wrong resort and having to book a hotel room. And even then he could have made it more shocking by adding "in a different country". Now there's an option for immediate thread drift: what's the most shocking country/place you can accidentally end up in? Zermatt having started in Cervinia? It's an expensive mistake but hardly a surprise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A reasonably balanced article - though am I the only one who came out of reading it wondering if it's all Americans or just the writer who could probably get lost in a toilet cubicle if they find European piste maps THAT hard to read?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure the point about most black runs getting groomed is generally true these days.
Zermatt-Cervinia has got to the place where you have most difficulty if you end up on the wrong side. Might as well give up and get a hotel room. Which is going to cost a load.
La Rosiere - La Thuile could be equally difficult but perhaps less expensive. Might need a hotel room. Although if you arrive a bit late for the lift back to La Thuile they may keep it running for a bit if you pay an extortionate supplement.
Wrong valley in 3V could be just a pricey taxi ride.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
The one thing which ALL european ski area need to adopt from the USA is in Lift Line MANAGEMENT. As the article says, it's non existant in europe and lift companies need to address this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Surprisingly good list. Other differences are Americans are much chattier with strangers on chairlifts, plus the putting the bar down thing of course, and in Europe you’ve got a much higher chance of a hell rescue if you need one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
How dare resorts in France/Austria/Italy use their native languages, rather than English?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| The one thing which ALL european ski area need to adopt from the USA is in Lift Line MANAGEMENT. As the article says, it's non existant in europe and lift companies need to address this. |
Hard agree. There are multiple easy solutions to this, from actively bringing people forward (I accept with regret that my preferred solution—a 30-minute lift-pass suspension, doubling on each successive offence, for anyone who leaves a gap in front of them on a chair—is unlikely to happen), to a singles queue from which people can fill any gaps, and I can’t see why none of them has been implemented. Maybe it’s an attempt to reduce on-piste congestion?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I do agree that better queue management, especially singles lines, would be a Good Thing. However, the implication in that article that European queues are a matter of the survival of the fittest, strongest, and rudest, is an exaggeration. It probably depends where you ski but like a lot of that article, it doesn't apply to most resorts - in the majority of European ski resorts anybody who arrives thinking they're hitting "party town" will be disappointed.
Overall though, as others have said, it's a reasonable article - though the advice that nobody need take any notice of "closed pistes" is wrong. Potentially catastrophically wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| frejul wrote: |
| I'm not sure the point about most black runs getting groomed is generally true these days. |
I'd say it is, certainly my experience is resorts tend to have one/maybe a couple of unpisted blacks/off piste itineraries bit the rest are pisted.
And the whole "Europe pistes it's blacks" thinking is also another difference between Europe and the US. In the US it seems generally the thinking is 'harder' means 'natural', so the hardest pistes are unpisted. In Europe on the other had 'harder' means 'race', so your hardest pistes are steep and bashed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Mjit, depends on the country. In Italy (maybe also Austria) almost all blacks are groomed.
In France it varies widely - I've been to French resorts where all the blacks are pisted, and others where they've all been left ungroomed. Most are somewhere in between.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Its quite a good insight into the North American psyche. Their conclusions are:
Europe isn’t one country.
The alps are very different to North America.
The climate is quite different.
The towns and villages have evolved over a long time and can be very picturesque.
Development and conservation are treated differently.
Alpine ski infrastructure tends to be much bigger and more sophisticated.
The snow is better in America
The Europeans are much less polite.
The runs in the Alps are usually groomed but also busier.
The food and the apres ski are very good.
Ski passes are much cheaper than in North America 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 2-03-24 14:07; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I agree that the Americans do understand good music 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@Weathercam, Don't disagree with a thing in that article. Mountain hosts are an absolute godsend. Everyone benifits, guests, hosts, resort and the mountain itself. The French are so short sighted in this. Very few if any skiers using a host would be looking for lessons, so the ESF don't lose anything which has traditionally been their reason for banning it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@Old Man Of Lech, I agree the ski host idea is a nice one. I'd have happily spent a day or so showing visitors round my ski area and it would have been great if they'd bought me lunch.
I don't think this would be banned in France. Just as nobody is "banned" from teaching friends or family to ski. But if it's part of a commercial offering it's regulated. Which I think is right. In the UK I can take friends and family out sailing, however incompetent I am. But if I'm charging for the ride there is a whole host of onerous regulatory requirements.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
One area that is truly poor in my opinion is the extent to which ungroomed trails are, or are not, avalanche controlled and patrolled.
It seems to vary by resort – in some resorts they are avalanche controlled and patrolled just like any other trail whereas in others they are not. Worse, there often does not seem to be an easy way to find out. One resort I went to, admittedly some years ago now, proudly showed itinerary routes on the piste map provided when I bought lift tickets, however, without any indication on the map as to their status. I only received a reply from the local tourist office after the end of the holiday (the itineraries were not controlled nor patrolled).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@wsirhc, an "ungroomed trail" (a piste, in Europarlance) is not the same thing as an "itinerary". In European resorts any piste marked as such on the map, and not closed, can be assumed to be avalanche-controlled and if you injure yourself, the patrol will be along to rescue you. A piste will quite likely be groomed from time to time, whereas an itinerary is never likely to be groomed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@wsirhc, I agree with you, currently in St Anton where there are (& throughout the Arlberg) "ski routes" all prominently marked on the ski map and well used runs (one is the only link on skis between Zürs & Lech).However the official line is that they are only secured not patrolled in the vicinity of a single line of poles despite the fact that some are groomed! Not a sensible set up at all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Origen It's not always as strightforward as you suggest. Looking at the Zell am See piste map there are multiple "Freeride/Ski route"s shown - what are they?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Decent article. Although I'm not sure about piste maps and lack of signage. Honestly not that hard to get around Europe resorts. Some of my favourite runs at whistler are not on the piste map at all! Kicking horse piste map is not much use at all. Some resorts in N America (perhaps Europe too but I've not seen it in my limited time there) have piste maps on the chair bar or in the gondola. I always thought that was a nice touch and saves faffing.trying to get a map out.
Regarding the euro blacks being pisted. Ok not all of them are, but even the ones that aren't are just completely different to what a double diamond looks like in N America. As an example this is ozone at kicking horse
https://images.app.goo.gl/HScW7TGbjdcDMCgS8
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Origen wrote: |
@Old Man Of Lech, I agree the ski host idea is a nice one. I'd have happily spent a day or so showing visitors round my ski area and it would have been great if they'd bought me lunch.
I don't think this would be banned in France. Just as nobody is "banned" from teaching friends or family to ski. But if it's part of a commercial offering it's regulated. Which I think is right. In the UK I can take friends and family out sailing, however incompetent I am. But if I'm charging for the ride there is a whole host of onerous regulatory requirements. |
My Espace Diamant season pass for this winter comes with two "ambassador" vouchers that give a couple of other people a free day pass. The season pass holder needs to ask for the day passes, there seems a pretty strong implication to me that the season pass holder would then show the guests around the resort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would just assume that anything called a free-ride route, or an itinerary, or anything of the sort was not avalanche controlled, and it was a case of making yourself aware of conditions. But perhaps that's wrong - I'm not very familiar with them. On the only one I know, you are generally in much more danger of hitting a mile of grass towards the bottom than being avalanched! And you do need to know that it's a longish walk or wait for an infrequent bus, if you do get to the bottom.
If there's such uncertainty then "caveat emptor" is the only wise approach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Origen wrote: |
@wsirhc, an "ungroomed trail" (a piste, in Europarlance) is not the same thing as an "itinerary". In European resorts any piste marked as such on the map, and not closed, can be assumed to be avalanche-controlled and if you injure yourself, the patrol will be along to rescue you. A piste will quite likely be groomed from time to time, whereas an itinerary is never likely to be groomed...
...I would just assume that anything called a free-ride route, or an itinerary, or anything of the sort was not avalanche controlled, and it was a case of making yourself aware of conditions. |
In Austria a piste is always groomed (that's why it's called a piste, having been pisted or made by a piste-basher). And for me ungroomed trail would translate to itinerary or ski route, which will be avalanche controlled (and opened or closed daily based on control work) but may or may not be patrolled.
Land Tirol has a document outlining all the definitions and requirements of the various categories of slope here (starts on page 6, in German): https://www.tirol.gv.at/fileadmin/themen/sport/berg-und-ski/downloads_berg_und_ski/guetesiegel/2022_Pistengu__tesiegel_Bericht.pdf
| Quote: |
2.1 Skiabfahrten
Skiabfahrten sind alle Arten von Abfahrsmöglichkeiten im organisierten und freien Skiraum. (siehe Seite 17)
2.2 Skipisten
Skipisten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski*) vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die markiert, kontrolliert und vor atypischen Gefahren, insbesondere Lawinengefahren, gesichert sind und präpariert wer- den (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Skirouten
Skirouten sind allgemein zugängliche, zur Abfahrt mit Ski vorgesehene und geeignete Strecken, die nur vor Lawinengefahr gesichert, jedoch weder präpariert noch kontrolliert* werden müssen.
2.4 Freies Skigelände
Alles, was nicht als Skipiste und Skiroute gewidmet wird, ist freies Skigelände. Es ist weder markiert noch präpariert, nicht kontrolliert und auch nicht gesichert. Von einer „wilden Piste“ spricht man dann, wenn die frei entstandene Abfahrt einer Piste gleicht, weil sie stark befahren wird. Von einer „Variante“ eher dann, wenn es sich um einzelne Spuren handelt. Dies gilt vor allem im Tiefschnee, wenn über ganze Hänge hinweg jeder seine eigene Spur zieht. Hier spricht man vom „Variantenfahren“ schlechthin.*) Unter „Ski“ im Sinne dieser Richtlinien werden alle Gleitgeräte auf Schnee, wie Ski, Big Foot, Firngleiter, Monoski, Snowboard, Skibob u.ä. verstanden.
ChatGPT Translation:
2.1 Ski Runs
Ski runs refer to all types of downhill opportunities in organized and free ski areas. (see page 17)
2.2 Ski Slopes
Ski slopes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, marked, controlled, and secured against atypical hazards, especially avalanche risks, and groomed (ÖNORM S 4611).
2.3 Ski Routes
Ski routes are generally accessible routes designated and suitable for skiing, secured only against avalanche danger but not groomed or controlled*.
2.4 Freeride Terrain**
Anything not dedicated as a ski slope or ski route is considered freeride terrain**. |
*Where the German kontrolliert has been translated into controlled, they mean patrolled - 'avalanche controlled' is the 'vor Lawinengefahr gesichert' bit.
**Also misleadingly translated, Freies Gelände means rather 'free terrain' offpiste than 'freeride terrain' in that it doesn't reference skiability of the terrain
I assume France must have something similar?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| JayRo wrote: |
| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| The one thing which ALL european ski area need to adopt from the USA is in Lift Line MANAGEMENT. As the article says, it's non existant in europe and lift companies need to address this. |
Hard agree. There are multiple easy solutions to this, from actively bringing people forward (I accept with regret that my preferred solution—a 30-minute lift-pass suspension, doubling on each successive offence, for anyone who leaves a gap in front of them on a chair—is unlikely to happen), to a singles queue from which people can fill any gaps, and I can’t see why none of them has been implemented. Maybe it’s an attempt to reduce on-piste congestion? |
The whole lift utilization situation would be greatly improved if only they put a single’s line on the side!
Any chair not filled would be filled by singles, or parties of 2 and 3 who are willing to go separately in exchange of the pushing and shoveling in the main mess. (This comes from someone who routinely skiing with mates happily willing to split up to go on the single line when the main queues are long)
It would most likely eliminates any empty chairs too.
That said, I’ve only experienced big mess of unruly crowds in cable cars. So I really don’t know if it really is as bad as others reported.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| abc wrote: |
| JayRo wrote: |
| Old Man Of Lech wrote: |
| The one thing which ALL european ski area need to adopt from the USA is in Lift Line MANAGEMENT. As the article says, it's non existant in europe and lift companies need to address this. |
Hard agree. There are multiple easy solutions to this, from actively bringing people forward (I accept with regret that my preferred solution—a 30-minute lift-pass suspension, doubling on each successive offence, for anyone who leaves a gap in front of them on a chair—is unlikely to happen), to a singles queue from which people can fill any gaps, and I can’t see why none of them has been implemented. Maybe it’s an attempt to reduce on-piste congestion? |
The whole lift utilization situation would be greatly improved if only they put a single’s line on the side!
Any chair not filled would be filled by singles, or parties of 2 and 3 who are willing to go separately in exchange of the pushing and shoveling in the main mess. (This comes from someone who routinely skiing with mates happily willing to split up to go on the single line when the main queues are long)
It would most likely eliminates any empty chairs too.
That said, I’ve only experienced big mess of unruly crowds in cable cars. So I really don’t know if it really is as bad as others reported. |
My kingdom for a singles' line and lift management. Why is that so hard? The queues in Europe are generally not so much long as anarchic. fill those chairs!
I'm "that guy" who will call out someone stepping on my skis or pushing past me. This Christmas at Les Contamines a typically French grandmere was telling her grandson to just push forward. He ran over my skis. I grabbed him by the coat and said, loudly, jeune homme, c'est ne pas poli...that scared the crap out of him. And granny gave me a dirty look but I said, Vous-voulez me payer pour réparer mes skis?
My other strategy is to fill the last seat on a group chair. That also gets me dirty looks, but eff it. I'm not paying for a lift pass so I can stand in line.
Grrr.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Here in Serre Chevalier we have the &Joy and basically, that's a priority singles lane that you have to pay a premium for.
We have it with our season pass, but I was speaking to some Swedish friends who were buying the occasional day ticket and were happy to pay the €9 premium as they reckoned over the course of a full day's skiing they saved at least an hour not in queues recently in peak season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I've been in loads of singles lines in europe and they work perfectly. It's odd when within certain ski areas some lifts have them and some don't. I do not understand why they are not more widely used though, is it just the effort of erecting a plastic fence or is it just not though of as an issue that needs resolving? On the times I have used them you often got 2 or even 3 people from the line jumping in as chairs can be so badly filled.
Nice to hear that the US uses the singles lines successfully.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Ski queue management in US is far superior, which means that even if the queue is enormous it is less stressful because you trust that it is being administered fairly.
The thing about lift prices is down to capitalism. In the US the whole resort is owned by a company and they exploit their monopoly on that particular mountain in the time honoured profit maximising way. But in Europe the more fragmented nature of many resorts and the greater sense that it is the village's mountain mean that there is a greater sense of charging enough to cover costs and invest in the network, but not a whole heap more. And this also means that things like on mountain eating - owned by the same company who owns the resort in the US, but provided by independents in Europe - have a greater variety of offering, experience and pricing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
The thing about lift prices is down to capitalism.
|
As opposed to the European communist resorts?
You are massively overthinking it. It's just a different pricing model. It encourages people to lock into "cheap" season passes pre season. There are plenty of examples where buying in advance gets you a cheaper price and/or buying by the day you pay way more (gyms, flights, trains etc.), yet people only lose their minds over ski resorts doing it.
Fwiw epic and iKON passes have actually made things cheaper l, and offer much more choice, for many skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
on the other hand this should not be a license to charge extra for this service
|
I can see no logical reason why not. Simple commercial calculation and it sounds as though it works OK in Serre Chevalier. Disneyland charge extra to jump the queues, don't they? People pay thousands of pounds to get their hip replacement quicker than others.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
^^^^ just been reading up more about it - fascinating! @rob@rar. Wonder how many people opt for the 'Express Lane' type pass, how busy it is and are they separate lanes or basically the ski school lane???? Is it new this year?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
