 Poster: A snowHead
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Well, after spending a week nailing the problem, by simply concentrating on pushing my fists forward whenever I'm skiing, a few powder days here and there have got me sitting back some more and skidding turns more than carving them. I think my skiing has improved overall in that time, but still have the problem of back seat being default position.
I had the problem of thighs burning after only a couple of hours previously, this was miraculously fixed by the end of last season by simply shifting weight forward.
I was, however, described as skiing in the back seat with my arms out. Which was probably true, but I was much closer to being balanced - even if I did look a bit uncomfortable.
So simple enough question. What drills can I do to shift weight forward, be more comfortable with weight shifted forward, and go from toilet seat to downhill champion?
All advice gratefully received, because it is so long since someone went through drills for this kind of thing with me I've forgotten what I need to do in order to get the weight further forward again. I appreciate this is a very common problem, so assume there must be some stuff that instructors are doing with people to get them forwards. Other than shouting "forward" at them repeatedly, which someone was trying last week, entertainingly.
Final question - I can consciously shift my weight forward so there is a small amount of pressure on my shins, right the way through to a lot of pressure on my shins. However if I tighten up my ankle clips the pressure on my shins is there all the time vs a tiny bit sloppy in normal use - this makes it a bit harder for me to tell whether I am shifting forwards properly, but feels like it is getting me closer to the correct position as the angle of the boot is slightly forward. Thoughts on this? I assume the advice is going to be that I should tighten up the boot and work on getting forwards in the same way, but how does one know how far forwards is far enough, or even too far?
Thanks in advance.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Most of the skiers I see in the back seat are in the back seat and relatively static. Working hard on flexion and extension movements, ensuring that the ankles flex as much as knees and the waist, often brings their 'neutral' position to be close to the centre of their skis. Being the backseat is often accompanied by the skier dropping the hands down to their hips for most of the time, although simply carrying the hands a bit higher won't resolve the problem if the skier's knees are still flexed more than their ankles.
I think working on increasing your range of movement is more likely to address backseat issues, especially bringing ankle movement in to the equation, rather than drills specifically to "fix the problem", but if you want a specific drill to play you you could try standing tall and get your hips as far forward as possible. It will feel terrible, but stick with it. Mental images might include trying to lift the tails of your skis off the snow as you ski, or the kind of position ski jumpers get in to. Make as many turns as you need to start feeling comfortable as this far end of your range of movement. The matching drill of too far back is also useful, and you can then play around with fore-aft movements as you start a turn too far forward, then complete it too far back.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks Rob. I have noticed that if I really focus on the up and down movement in the turn it does seem to help, but that's kind of natural skiing action to me - it is a useful reminder for me though, if I keep myself doing that, I'll probably move my weight forward.
I often find myself cruising with my hands by my hips, especially when skiing on flatter sections, I then have to consciously bring my hands up and forward when I start putting turns in - though this is something I'd quite like to get rid of, without feeling like a statue on the long flatter sections that we like to cruise around on.
I'll try the extreme forward drill. Sounds, frankly, terrifying, but it can't go far wrong in a fridge.
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| Monium wrote: |
| I'll try the extreme forward drill. Sounds, frankly, terrifying, but it can't go far wrong in a fridge. |
The walls have a certain habit of concentrating the mind on successful execution of the drill 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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you may be surprised at how slowly you go when you are very far forward
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| start a turn too far forward, then complete it too far back. |
Scott had us doing this the other day, A decent plant really helps you get up and forwards on the transition.
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Ankle flex, check it out first. 
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Monium, a good one which easiski had us doing was hopping - in a traverse, really flex down then extend up, just jumping the tails of the skis off the snow. After a few of them, just jump the tips. then if not already too knackered, jump tips and tails alternately - that really gets you going on shifting the weight.
Good one for a cold morning.
Best, book yourself into a clinic (a ski clinic, that is....)
Also have a look at Fastman's "fore/aft" thread in BZK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Monium wrote: |
Final question - I can consciously shift my weight forward so there is a small amount of pressure on my shins, right the way through to a lot of pressure on my shins. However if I tighten up my ankle clips the pressure on my shins is there all the time vs a tiny bit sloppy in normal use - this makes it a bit harder for me to tell whether I am shifting forwards properly, but feels like it is getting me closer to the correct position as the angle of the boot is slightly forward. Thoughts on this? I assume the advice is going to be that I should tighten up the boot and work on getting forwards in the same way, but how does one know how far forwards is far enough, or even too far?
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Learn to use the awareness of the base of your foot for balance awareness rather than your shin... Then even if you get set up with too much ramp or forward lean or a tight boot cuff you still know where you are balanced...
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Monium, the best advice I can give you is to just STAND UP! By that I mean extend your knees and stand tall. That pulls your pelvis up and forward, stacking it above your feet. Your shoulders will then automatically stack above your pelvis, and you'll end up in a very functional and energy efficient athletic stance. From that position, if you want to move fore anymore, do it by flexing your ankle forward. Monitor your fore/aft balance state by how pressure is distributed across your foot, from ball to heel, as little tiger suggests.
Driving the hands forward can have the opposite effect. It can result in the pelvis being projected back, to compensate for the arms being thrust forward. The result is an energy draining crunched stance. It's an athletic stance killer. To get the hips out of the back seat, a better drill is to ski with hands behind the back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am guilty of the same. Lowering your centre of gravity by bending your knees and hips makes you feel more in control and means you can stick in a skid turn at any time. Puts you in the back seat and burns the quads!
Head up, shoulders loose and concentrate on balance. That's what I have been told, easier to say than do.
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You know it makes sense.
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landmannnn, a lot of it is habit also... If you practice at home in front of a mirror(like in the article above) and make sure you 'stand up well' in lift lines and on flat run outs where it is easy, then it becomes easier on harder terrain. You need to embed the habit where it is a piece of cake! My instructor took me to task for 'slouching' in lift lines - had me work on standing well and flexing ankles... eventually it worked... Similarly he had me work on 'edging both feet' when standing in bank and supermarket queues... not as good as skiing it but a lot better than nothing...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ooooh, this sounds suspiciously like me too! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, Can't say too much.....I'll be seeing him in just over a week
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I think part of the problem is that when I stand up straight, my hands fall down to my sides and I lean back in a very lazy fashion. I think getting my hands out is step one, step two is going to be "sticking my dick out" a bit more, as it does seem to get my hips back a bit.
I might do some videoing of me skiing, and have a good look at what I'm actually doing when I ski. Mrs Monium will think I've bought her a helmet cam as a lovely gift, whereas I have in fact got a perfect tool for diagnosing my own skiing laziness 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Monium, Another fairly easy tip to remember is to keep your hands where you can see them. Makes more sense if your a goggle wearer i think because they narrow your field of vision somewhat.
ps. note; i didn't put this with my previous post.... far too much innuendo ammunition
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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GeorgeVII, x 2!
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Monium, Put one of those little plastic forks in the back of your boots....just behind your calf muscles 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So are you saying the best tactic is to get the abs in shape? (core strength and all that jargon)
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IMV, tipping your pelvis "North" will naturally push your knees forwards and round your back - both desirable features. A tight core is really important when conditions get "interesting". Then you need to stop your body from flapping about and instead use it as a flywheel to carry you through smoothly.
Pilates and yoga are both good for this.
Another image to conjure with while your skiing is that of a large coin clasped between your cheeks!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hmmm...
Well, as I shall be saying to my class tonight
JUST STAND PROPERLY !!! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE ???
Why are you sticking your hands out like some kind of sleepwalker ?? What is that ? I never said to do that.
And your knees! We all did the standing properly drill just now and suddenly you can't bend them ?? I spent ten weeks in plaster and had more movement in my knee than you lot are exhibiting.
Get forward, FLEX YOUR ANKLES... No! not a couple of degrees by tilting you head forward. Flex them! you do it all the time when you walk for heaven's sake.
Oh, just pick yourself up and get out of the way of the slalom race... quickly, QUICKLYYYYY!!!!
No I shan't. Sometimes I think it though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| altis wrote: |
| IMV, tipping your pelvis "North" |
I've never understood this point about rotating your pelvis. It was mentioned once in a ski lesson I had and I had trouble visualising it or feeling whether I was doing it or not.
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rob@rar, thank heavens, that's been worrying me for years. I could never figure what it meant either 
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You know it makes sense.
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perhaps its easier if you've had a hip replacement, all that metal must make it easier to find north...
Assuming it's magnetic north you're after not grid north or true north...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| altis wrote: |
| IMV, tipping your pelvis "North" |
I've never understood this point about rotating your pelvis. It was mentioned once in a ski lesson I had and I had trouble visualising it or feeling whether I was doing it or not. |
It's the action in of "Summer Nights" from Grease - right after the "wellah wellah wellah-huh" bit. Perhaps without putting your hands on your hips and looking at one of the girls in an inappropriate fashion, you are at work after all.
I'm going to try putting my hands where I can see them all the time, and standing properly with my hips forward. The issue does seem to be getting my hands forward pushes my hips back, if I can do both then I should be out of the back seat - it's hard to sit back with your arms dangling by your sides with your hips forward and hands out 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| thirty06 wrote: |
Get forward, FLEX YOUR ANKLES... No! not a couple of degrees by tilting you head forward. Flex them! you do it all the time when you walk for heaven's sake. |
I've never really understood the 'ankle flex' idea - if ankle flex is so desirable, why are ski boots so rigid?? If I pressure my boots enough to get any significant amount of flex, they rip my shins to pieces 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Yoda,
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thank heavens, that's been worrying me for years. I could never figure what it meant either
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Tilt the front of your pelvis upwards.. opposite of sticking you backside out....
Red Leon, Try skiing in trainers ! Ankle flex is required for you to be properly balanced over the ski. If your shins are beaten up - that's a good thing ! Ankle flex is a movement - i.e. you don't ski with your ankles fixed, rather they bend and stretch along with your knees and hips.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ski, I understand the words, but trying to keep my pelvis tilted upwards means that I seem to get "locked" and hence lose a large part of my normal vertical range of free movement when skiing. It just doesn't feel natural.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan,
But
a) Wouldn't the crouched stance but used for quick sucession short radius turns
and
b) Is the picture of the Athletic stance a good example? (e.g. Shins don't look parrallel and upper body looks to be leaning back)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yoda,
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I understand the words, but trying to keep my pelvis tilted upwards means that I seem to get "locked" and hence lose a large part of my normal vertical range of free movement when skiing. It just doesn't feel natural.
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I think it's a bit like the old 'Ben zee Knees' saying... for me it's more about not sticking it out, rather than tilting as far forward as you can. If you look at Fastmans' pictiures, you can see that the pelvis is tilted further upward in the second one.
I certainly find after a hard skiing day (LG for instance) that a little pelvic tilt helps me remain on the centre of the ski... rather than drifting backward.
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DB, the version of the Athletic Stance shown in the picture above is a home base stance, a low edge angle version of the Athletic Stance, such as you would use when steering low edge turns. As you go through more dynamic carved turns it will necessarily change, but the hips stacked over feet position it encourages should remain. That happens by keeping the outside leg long, as the inside leg flexes to allow the creation of desired edge angle. During a turn, it's over flexion of the outside knee that will degrade the Athletic Stance.
Transitions from one turn to the next will see a role reversal of which leg is the outside leg. The old inside (uphill) leg extends to become the new outside leg, and the old outside (downhill) leg flexes to become the new inside leg. During that process, a temporary stance that appears crunched (see top photo) may happen. The skier is simply mid stage in the process of returning to their home base Athletic Stance. The problem exists when skiers never get there, when they ski perpetually crunched, with their outside leg never getting extended and long.
As to your observations of the AThletic Stance photo; the difference in shin angle you see in my Athletic Stance photo is because of the extra flexion necessary in my uphill/inside leg. Both skis are on the same edge angle, but my inside leg needs to be shorter, so it's flexed more. And: because of the forced ankle flexion a ski boot imposes, remaining center balanced in an Athletic Stance can produce that slight "leaning back" appearance you see. The goal is to try to stack the pelvis and shoulders in a straight line above the feet. Don't let the pelvis project rearward, and the shoulders forward, as shown in the crunched stance.
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| ski wrote: |
I think it's a bit like the old 'Ben zee Knees' saying... for me it's more about not sticking it out, rather than tilting as far forward as you can. If you look at Fastmans' pictiures, you can see that the pelvis is tilted further upward in the second one.. |
ski, as a strategy for moving the pelvis forward, and getting it stacked over the feet, it can be a useful cue. Glad to hear it woks for you.
The issue I have with it is when it's suggested to people not having a pelvis behind feet issue. I've personally seen it happen. It's then that people start trying to contort themselves, for no particularly good reason, and getting all stiff and static. I suspect that's what rob@rar experience with it was. I doubt he has pelvis aft issues, so he was trying to rotate his pelvis when it was already where it needed to be. Sometimes technical concepts get misunderstood.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I've never understood this point about rotating your pelvis. It was mentioned once in a ski lesson I had and I had trouble visualising it or feeling whether I was doing it or not.
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The crude way of describing the desired stance, rob, is "shag not sh*t".
Fastman might say that he doesn't care how people tilt their pelvis, but in fact his illustration of an athletic stance has a nicely north-tilted pelvis (the north/south labels make no inherent sense but come from Pilates).
There's certainly no need to make a big deal of it - but you only have to look round the average nursery (or blue) slope to see what the "wrong" tilt looks like.
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| Red Leon wrote: |
| thirty06 wrote: |
Get forward, FLEX YOUR ANKLES... No! not a couple of degrees by tilting you head forward. Flex them! you do it all the time when you walk for heaven's sake. |
I've never really understood the 'ankle flex' idea - if ankle flex is so desirable, why are ski boots so rigid?? If I pressure my boots enough to get any significant amount of flex, they rip my shins to pieces |
Good observation, Red Leon. It's a subtle thing. It takes very little ankle flexion to have a big impact on one's foe/aft balance. You don't have to heavily pressure the front or back of the boot cuff to make a significant fore/aft balance adjustment. In fact, doing so has a negative impact on balance efficiency.
In my Athletic Stance picture above, I'm center balanced. By simply flexing or extending at my ankle joint I could become fore or aft balanced, yet display very little change in the look of my stance. That's why ankle flexion is so important,,, it's such a powerful balance management tool.
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FAQ
Which one of them could have been so coarse? (Actually, I think I might just be able to guess. 
