 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi All,
My name is George, I work as an design engineer for a New Zealand based product design consultancy, idesign solutions Ltd.
We have recently initiated a project to bring to market a tool that will aid in the analysis of a snow base for avalanche risk. Our motivation for this project is to provide snow enthusiasts with a tool to collect more consistent and precise data so that the decision making process can be based on accurate results. We believe there is a need for a tool that encourages more frequent testing by reducing the sampling time and effort involved; therefore less assumption and safer riding!
It should be made clear that this project is not about reducing the need for extreme caution in the backcountry. We encourage and advise taking avalanches courses to continually improve your knowledge of the alpine environment and associated avalanche risk. This product will not replace current assessment methods but aims to allow for a more informed decision making process.
For this project to be a success we rely on your knowledge and experience to determine what this "tool or System" will be and how it will function etc. If you share an interest in this topic and would like to contribute to the development process please take the survey using the link below: This shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to complete. We value your time and input.
SURVEY LINK: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/432864/Avalanche-Risk-Assessment-Survey
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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George_idesignLtd, Very interesting idea.
A tool that could analyse snow-pack would be very useful.
Would be worth reposting this thread on Pistehors.com.
The folks at SLF Davos would no doubt be very interested, and a valueable source of info.
Do you have any further details of how your system might work ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks snow muncher. We will measure the shear strength of the snow pack.
Happy new year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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snow_muncher, Im sorry but for me any survey that starts with a request for my address and phone number is not getting completed.
Remove the unnecessary personal data requests and I will fill in your survey happily.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is this the electronic snowpack analyzer that was on CNN or BBC World a few days ago?
Can't remember where I saw it exactly, though.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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kevindonkleywood,
bit OCD??
I think that phonebooks might carry more info!... or youtube?...
Maybe the request for info is to ensure the data provided is reliable and even potentially creditable if needs be?
Names and addresses are the least of your worries!
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flangesax, I disagree. You have to give your permission in the UK for your number to be listed on electronic or paper phone directories.
I think saying "a bit OCD" is rude and out of order btw. 
Having said which - you don't actually need to enter that data to proceed with the questionnaire as far as I can see (althought I have not finished it yet)
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George_idesignLtd,
I have bailed out because
1) The "how often do you ski avalanche terrain" question does not have decent answers for people who do not live in a alpine country and are there for 3 or 4 weeks a year - but pretty intensely then.
2) The " would you like to see it automated" question is a spurious marketting question
3) Asking for 3 different numbers on frequency of pit digging - without clear explanation - is just stupid and will give you spurious information and recall bias.
We see many poorly designed questionnaires linked to here. This is one of them. Sorry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You'd be better off spending money designing a little robot that flies like a RC chopper over you when you ski - perhaps it could video you? If you get in a slide the robot could implement a rescue. I'd take one.
I'm not sure there is a computer advanced enough that I would trust to aid my decision as to whether a pitch was safe to ski or not. We see time and time again true professionals with decades of experience get caught in avalanches. If there were "hard and fast" rules we wouldn't see any avalanche deaths.
Good luck getting liability insurance as the manufacturer of this "device".
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George_idesignLtd, Sorry - I didn't complete it either.
Similar reasons to stoatsbrother, plus I got the feeling that questions appeared aimed towards ski tourers who operate outside of resort boundries. Not me as things stand.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kevindonkleywood, Not my survey George_idesignLtd is the OP.
If you don't like giving out personal details, don't put genuine data in - simplez !
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I think saying "a bit OCD" is rude and out of order btw.
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You might want to man up a bit then 
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I'm with parlor on this - taking the responsibility away from people and encouraging reliance on a computer isn't the best way to stay safe. But hey, sounds interesting, and I'd like to see what you come up with.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Is this the electronic snowpack analyzer that was on CNN or BBC World a few days ago?
Can't remember where I saw it exactly, though. |
I knew I'd seen something somewhere.
The Canadians just unveiled an infrared avalanche camera.
It effectively xrays the snow to find potentially unstable layers.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
It effectively xrays the snow to find potentially unstable layers
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Would save time digging pits at least!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have no experience with avalanche assessment, but I have a general interest and have read lots on SH's. Having worked in an industry which makes use of cores I wondered if 'coring' was ever used in avalanche analysis. I've read all about pit digging and it seems this is done to be able to assess how the snow is packed as you can see the crystal stucture through the depth of the pit (yes?). Could a core be used in the same way or is there a reason why this is not used, it seems to be that it would be fairly straightforward to desing a folding tool that would take one. As I say no prior experience of avalanche testing and no intention of skiing off piste into possible avalanche territory, but as an idle wonder I thought I would post and find out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snow_muncher, Sorry, my OCD  means I often click in the wrong places you are right my comments should have been addressed toGeorge_idesignLtd.
flangesax, I may well be OCD but that is one of my better personal characteristics, However i still fail to see why you need name, adress, ocupation, sex, age,E-mail,phone number, company you work for to fill in and validate a survey like this.
My schizophrenia. paranoid delusions and psychopathic tendencies mean that I hear voices telling me not to fill in marketing surveys that ask for my underwear preferences.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 10-01-11 22:17; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kevindonkleywood, ditto
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's kind of interesting to put the OP's name into Google - they have logged onto ski websites all over the place just prior to Christmas I wonder what sort of reception he is getting in some other locations?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Filled this out and thought it was OK.
My personal feeling is that a device that can accurately measure the strength of the snowpack would be a very useful tool for avalanche forecasters and ski patrollers, but would be of limited use to individuals/small groups. The problem is that it can only give you a reading in one spot. This may tell you that the snow is (or isn't, in which case why are you there!?) stable on that particular spot, but it tells you almost nothing about what the snow is doing as little as 50m away. This has always been the problem with digging pits and would remain an issue with what would be effectively an automatic pit-digger/analyser. For forecasters/patrollers, it's really useful as you can combine readings from a large number of locations to give an overall picture. For individuals, less so.
As an International Mountain Leader, I've got a decent amount of training in digging/analysing pits but I pretty much never do so in my local area. I'm here all season so I have a good idea of what's going on underneath the surface. If I was visiting another area I might do so but, to be honest, probably not. Snow profiles and avalanche forecasts for most areas are readily available and make for much more useful information than digging a pit. It's over-rated as a tool for assessing a slope as it very rarely gives you a clear go/no-go indicator, and on the occasions that it does, you probably knew the answer before you started digging!
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Megamum, pit-digging is essentially the same thing as coring - you're taking a profile of the snowpack in the same way as you might look at a core profile.
Core samples might be interesting in a lab environment, but probably not in the field. For one thing, you'd need extra equipment to take the core (and I'm not sure the tool required to take a 2m deep sample would be terribly portable!) whereas you're already carrying a shovel for digging pits. More importantly, a snow-column pit test is generally carried out with the back of the column still attached to the snow-pack as this gives a more accurate feel for what's going to happen to the snow when loaded by a skier.
Interesting idea though, not knocking the thinking! It would be interesting to do proper lab tests on well-preserved cores to get some accurate figures on shear-strengths between different kinds of layers.
I was a mechanical engineer before I was a mountain professional so I find this stuff really interesting!
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| It's over-rated as a tool for assessing a slope as it very rarely gives you a clear go/no-go indicator, and on the occasions that it does, you probably knew the answer before you started digging! |
A guide who ran a mountain safety course I was on said the same thing. He hardly ever dug pits because (1) the snowpack could vary significantly within a short distance so one or two pits might not give a representative understanding of condition, (2) he followed the snow and weather reports closely over the season so had a good understanding of the snowpack, and (3) if he felt the snowpack stability was so marginal that the only way to decide if it was safe enough was by digging a pit he probably wouldn't ski that slope in any case.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Right, exactly what the guides on my IML courses said.
Martin Chester (Guide and head-instructor at Plas y Brenin) had a great analogy that he uses with teenagers:
You dig a pit. You can make the back wall fail, but it takes a bit of force. You ask the kids what they think the odds of the slope sliding are. The come up with a consensus of, say, 20%.
You ask them if they would ski the slope. They say "Yes, sure."
You then ask them to imagine they're standing at the side of a motorway. You offer them an 80% chance of getting to the other side alive on foot. You ask them if they would try to cross. "NO WAY!".
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| stevomcd wrote: |
| It's over-rated as a tool for assessing a slope as it very rarely gives you a clear go/no-go indicator, and on the occasions that it does, you probably knew the answer before you started digging! |
A guide who ran a mountain safety course I was on said the same thing. He hardly ever dug pits because (1) the snowpack could vary significantly within a short distance so one or two pits might not give a representative understanding of condition, (2) he followed the snow and weather reports closely over the season so had a good understanding of the snowpack, and (3) if he felt the snowpack stability was so marginal that the only way to decide if it was safe enough was by digging a pit he probably wouldn't ski that slope in any case. |
I often thought the same thing - how could 1 pit alone tell you the condition 50m away.
Regarding coring v digging and new technology here is my take on it.
New method must be quicker and provide a marked increase in safety to be adopted and used. I thought of a soloution but at the end of the day it would only give a false sense of secutity, and the liability issue becomes a problem.
The way forward if anyone is interested is a light weight "portable drill" with custom torque sensor and a T shaped attachment(or paint plaster mixer). As the drill turns you push into snowpack and record results to smartphone(via bluetooth) to check. The app would record GPS data and upload and provide feedback of season and historic data. The app could be downloaded by anyone to view data. The business could develop low power portable "display" stations to place at the start of off piste routes displaying near realtime data.
I think I could knock up a prototype with bits from the garage!!!!!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| daehwons wrote: |
| The way forward if anyone is interested is a light weight "portable drill" with custom torque sensor and a T shaped attachment(or paint plaster mixer). |
Unless you have long arms or a long T-shaped attachment you won't reach the bottom of the snowpack.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| daehwons wrote: |
| The way forward if anyone is interested is a light weight "portable drill" with custom torque sensor and a T shaped attachment(or paint plaster mixer). |
Unless you have long arms or a long T-shaped attachment you won't reach the bottom of the snowpack. |
I have kept some details to myself here.... I have it all planned** out though
**(plans are available for "ONE MILLION DOLLARS")
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was wondering about something along the lines of a hollow avalanche probe which had a means of recovering the core maybe by opening and freeing the core with a twist or maybe something that could push the core out without disturbance. If you had a narrow tube would it be possible to push it in far enough? It seems that it is possible to push in an avalanche probe to find a victim and that is once the snow has compressed following the fall. Just an idle thought chain you understand.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, it wouldn't give you any opportunity to do a rutschblock test, where you test the layers exposed in your pit to see how easily they slide. As above, obviously there are limits to how useful the results of that are anyway though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, Hawthorn effect in play.
These pits are dug in soft snow/powder down a meter or so - not on packed piste.
you are trying to analyse the compression and shearing strength of a medium which - using any kind of coring method - will be compressed by the sampling technique - and isolated from the surrounding pack - preventing analysis of adhesion/shear properties.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, so digging the pit is followed by further tests of the exposed layers - it isn't just a visible assessment of the crystal structure of the exposed layers then - I'm happy to learn and increase my understanding here - the science is interesting? Compression could well be a problem in a coring technique I just wondered if you could get an (uncompressed) core out whether a visual examination of that would give any clues that would be useful. Hypothetically it does sound possible to get a corer pushed in enough though if you only need to go in a metre in soft snow.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Hypothetically it does sound possible to get a corer pushed in enough though if you only need to go in a metre in soft snow. |
You need to get down to ground level (you can get depth hoar at the ground-snow interface). If the snowpack is 3m deep you need to get down 3m.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| Hypothetically it does sound possible to get a corer pushed in enough though if you only need to go in a metre in soft snow. |
You need to get down to ground level (you can get depth hoar at the ground-snow interface). If the snowpack is 3m deep you need to get down 3m. |
And there lies the problem, any development of a new method will not replace the current way but just add to the data collected and make it more likely data will be added to.
How many pits would one dig in a day/week/month? I would guess 1 a day at most so if you had a tool that gave you 80% of the data in 5 mins without any effort and you collected data through the day at different locations it must be a collective advantage
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| daehwons wrote: |
| ... if you had a tool that gave you 80% of the data in 5 mins without any effort and you collected data through the day at different locations it must be a collective advantage |
No I don't think that 80% of the data is 80% as good. You need to get the full picture otherwise it's no good at all. But I defer to the guide that I quoted earlier in this thread who hardly ever dug snow pits for reasons which seem pretty sensible.
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| daehwons wrote: |
| How many pits would one dig in a day/week/month? I would guess 1 a day at most |
I have never dug a pit except on a course or to show clients how the snowpack has developed. If i am not happy with other indicators i do not ski the slope.
If everybody skiing offpiste dug a 'pit a day' the snow pack would be even more unstable.
I actually thought the OP was a wind up and i am still not convinced otherwise.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| If i am not happy with other indicators i do not ski the slope. |
Exactly right.
Guess things in Espace Killy are pretty glum this evening
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| daehwons wrote: |
| How many pits would one dig in a day/week/month? I would guess 1 a day at most |
I have never dug a pit except on a course or to show clients how the snowpack has developed. If i am not happy with other indicators i do not ski the slope.
If everybody skiing offpiste dug a 'pit a day' the snow pack would be even more unstable.
I actually thought the OP was a wind up and i am still not convinced otherwise. |
Thats what I thought
So by other indicators I take it you mean Recent snowfall, temps, wind speed and direction along with the advertised risk level. Do you know if the weather stations record this info and display it anywhere?
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daehwons, sometimes it's possible to download the snowpack charts for a given resort \ location but they can be hard to find, and take some skill in evaluating.
This is one I found for one of my favorite area's -
Interestingly it's mostly English which is a step forward - always was in Catalan.
I took it from an interactive map which (again is new) appears top map incidents, observations and localized avi reports for the Val d'Aran and surrounding area. Pretty good I'd say.
http://www.lauegi.conselharan.org/index.php?lang=catalan (click mapa sensible )
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FAQ
