Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

A snowHead

Hi all

Search function seems to be not working at the moment so apologise if this has been done before many times.

OK.. so looking for an annual family multi trip policy. Dog Tag look good but they dont actually cover you off piste unless you are with a guide and have more loop holes than you can imagine. Same on everyone I try.

I'm off to NA to Jackson Hole and they have the official ski area boundary with gates that you can enter when they are open so long as you are equipped. But every policy I find says you still need a guide which is pants.

I know there have been a few cases recently and especially that one on the North Face of the Grande Motte that even though they had cover they still weren't covered. So am I wasting my time even searching and just except that in reality i've (a) never been covered (b) never will be unless I take a guide?

Anyone know of a company that fits my bill?

Cheers

Alex

A snowHead

Snowcard.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Try BMC (British Mountaineering Council), however it would be prohibitively expensive to book this worldwide for the entire year. So perhaps look at just getting it for the relevant parties for the duration of your trip to Jackson.

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Direct travel or the BMC. Don;t forget that "offpiste" is not the same in europe as in the states - on and off piste in europe, in and out of bounds in North america.

I would be very surprised if dog tag didn't cover off piste without a guide though, they do have a pretty good rep

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

snowcard.

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Cunners, cheers for that. Interesting as they definitely cover and have loads of options. £454 a year for the family against £136 on the rubbish policies but it does what I wanted so it's good value I think on balance.

Any others anyone else?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

BMC definitely do unguided off piste but as already mentioned it isn't cheap!

After all it is free

nbt, I was with Direct Travel Insurance last year and just rang them for a quote and they dont cover in NA outside of the resort boundary unless you have a local guide.

Just going to try BMC

Cheers all this is very helpful.

Alex A, SOrry, I misunderstood - you;re actually going out of bounds, I thought you meant gated areas inbounds like delerium dive @ Sunshine

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BMC actually quite cheap in comparison to Snowcard. £136 single trip. I could then maybe get another normal policy for the family but we'd be double insured then and dont know if that's an issue... hmmmmm surely I can just get the add on cover from BMC and not have the whole hogg with them.

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http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/insurance/skiinsurance.aspx seems to do everything.

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The Ski Club of Great Britain's policy covers for off piste without a guide, but there are cheaper ones, I've been told.

Jackson Hole has two kinds of out of bounds skiing: to the left of the resort (looking up) is an area known as the side country. This is not very extensive but guides can take you there. All the rest, including the various ways into the big canyon (Granite) which runs behind the resort is National Park and guides are not allowed to take people there. The first gate near the Tram and the second, if you then turn right, are easier skiing into Granite, much through tree glades; the ones further right are steep gullies through the cliff bands. Beyond Granite you need skins. Not many people ski the back country but your best bet is to find a local - someone on their day off perhaps - to take you (there is a long pole and walk to get back around to the front but it is worth it: we did it 3 times plus a day touring using maps). I gather that inbounds the Head-Wall area (which requires a walk to get to) tends to get skied out last.

Got Snowcard down to £316 when I actaully rang them and got the cover at the correct leve. That's a multi trip annual family policy with 3 weeks skiing covered at level 4 including ski touring etc.. will try the skiclub one now..

You know it makes sense.

snowball, thanks for input. I've spent about 30 days skiing Jackson and have done Granite etc and ended up back on the cross country area.. To be honest with 2 kids now and this years terrible snowpack unless it improves we will be staying to the left as you mention, up headwall etc. You go 3 valleys over behond "No Name" and get some great terrain and we all alone etc... we have a couple of friends that live at Teton Village to so will be hooking up with them. I just want to make sure we are insured as most policies as soon as you leave those gates and even skiing runs within them you are not covered which is just not worth it, especially with a family to consider these days.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Double insurance isn't an issue (i hope)

I think if I fall over on piste I'm covered by at least 3 policies at the moment, including snowcard, the other two have been foisted on me by my bank and my healthcare automatically and appear to have no-opt out.

A snowHead

Ski Club looks too cheap to be true. Only £176 a year and I cant find any text that states what's covered what isn't other than it saying you are covered off piste with or without a guide. IMO vague = hiding something. If it looks to good to be true it normally is?!

Cunners, think i'm going with the Snowcard. Just a gut feel having spoke to them and their options seem so extensive. Level 4 covers what I need so looks good.

Alex

A snowHead

Snowboard Club UK Insurance

There is a policy pdf on the page too.

No connection etc.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

bar shaker, that says you have to be accompanied, but I can't see where it says by whome Confused

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Alex A, I get the ski club rate at £111 for 60 days. Do you need more than Cat 1?

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snowball, Hi...

I read all that, but on calling them up it appears that in US resorts they were very ambigous on what was and wasn't covered. For example the term "out of bounds" or outside ski area boundaries isn't covered on their policy from what I can gather. How can one policy be that cheap and then BMC and Snowcard be £316-£350 for an annual family policy? Half the price and way less options / details to me rings bells.

On Snowcard you have so many options and actual persuits listed. She even went into detail about what type of touring I would be during. Was I using skins, how far from the boundary was I going to be etc etc. The Ski Club one just says it covers you for "off piste with or with a guide" and then has a few different variations mentioned.

I have 14 days to cancel Snowcard so if the Ski Club isn't less cover then i'll go for it.

I just reckon £170 vs £316 must mean it's going to mean more issues when claiming.

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Alex A, can't help with the jackson hole questions, but can recommend Snowcard based on my experience with them - two claims over several years, dealt with very well. the only reason we don't use them now is that their trip length rules are too restrictive for us.

After all it is free

pam w, good to hear Pam. I work in the travel industry and also having done seasons etc and dealt with many claims you just get a feeling for who seems like they will be the least hassle and Snowcard sounded good so went for them. Hearing that story about those people in Tignes last year has made me very careful and saving a few quid isn't worth it in my opinion on insurance. Fingers crossed we wont need it though !

All I can say is, if you are covered for European off piste and touring (as you are here), US out of bounds is exactly the same thing. I also know this from my own experience. Only US inbounds "off piste" is a bit ambiguous if you are not covered for off piste - but that is not relevant here. As it says, you do need their more expensive option for Heli skiing and ski mountaineering, and if you want to ski in other places as well as Europe you pay a bit more (if it is the same as previous years - I haven't checked since I'm only skiing Europe this year. They don't go into details exactly because it is all covered (which is why I use them). I don't understand what it is you are looking for and haven't found. What question do you need answered?

Mind you, I haven't found them cheap.

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Direct Travel, used them for years, just re-newed today & checked that I'm still covered on off-piste without a guide. The answer was yes.

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ssnowman, They dont cover outside the resort boundary in the US without a local qualified guide. They were who I was with last year and the year before and luckily I asked the question this year and had to leave them because of this. If you only ski in Europe then it seems they cover so no problem.

snowball, As above, Ski Club do not cover for leaving the ropes in the US. Just came off phone from them. Also if avalanche risk "considerable" (3/5) they also dont cover. This is what I meant. Where is that mentioned in their terms? It was only when I got talking to them about wahts considered "taking reasonable care" it all came out !

Anyway.. all sorted now and thanks for the Snowcard rec.

Cheers

snow reports

Well, that's a shock, I have been skiing US and Canadian backcountry assuming we were covered and I know many other people in the Ski Club who have been doing the same. I checked with Ski Club insurance and you were right. I am going to put this on the Ski Club website to warn people. You have done us a service.

ssnowman, some light reading for you, 2 pages, with some info on Direct-Travel policy T&C's

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=59202

You know it makes sense.

I have just been been in contact with the Ski Club and they had thought that the deal they negotiated with the insurance company did cover the US back country. They are going to clear this up with the Insurance company. It is unclear if the misunderstanding is between the ski Club and the Insurance or within the Insurance company - those lower down the chain having misunderstood the policy agreed with the Ski Club. What is certain (according to the Ski Club official I spoke to) is that Backcountry will be covered by Ski Club insurance, since this is necessary and was always intended.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I am off to ski tomorrow morning so will not be able to follow this up with the SCGB till I get back, but perhaps someone else on here will.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Swirly, taken from Dog Tag website. As you can see it doesn't cover outside of the areas that are patrolled. So in the US that means all back country skiing is not covered as the areas are not patrolled and "outside" the official boundaries. Also in somewhere like Tignes. There are only specific "in bounds" freeride zones that are prepared and have avalanche mitigation carried out. So in my opinion Dog Tag are pretty clear that they really only cover you "off" the piste as in literally skiing on unprepared snow that is away from the piste but not far away and prepared by the ski patrol. This is why I started to look so deeply into this as to be honest none of them I can see apart from the BMC and Snowcard actually cover what I wanted. Hence why they are twice / three times the price!

Q. Do you cover Off Piste Skiing and what is the definition of Off Piste?
A.Off-piste is defined as venturing over ungroomed and unmarked slopes but within the ski area or resort boundary, i.e the area covered by ski patrollers or managed by the resort. Most resorts designate off-piste areas but if you are uncertain about a particular area, do not go there.

Some people understand off piste (or backcountry) skiing or boarding to mean 'going out of bounds', i.e. outwith the resort. If you are going out of bounds or outwith marked areas of the resort, you must only do so with a fully qualified local guide. Even some areas within a resort may be considered out of bounds because they are hazardous. In some parts of North America, going out of bounds contravenes local law and you may face arrest.

It is your responsibility to ensure that on any particular day you are aware of and obey local advice, information and instructions given by the resort authorities and that you obey any signs and information you encounter on the mountain. If a section is marked 'closed' there will be a very good reason for it (e.g. high avalanche danger) and ignoring such signs or advice may invalidate your cover. You should be aware that under the terms of cover, needless self-exposure to peril except in an endeavor to save human life may invalidate your cover.

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That sounds like a very very grey area as far as Europe's concerned, as the areas are not desginated like they are in the US. However, I'd say in many resorts it would cover an awful lot - probably anywhere you can get to back to a lift at the bottom I'd say. But hugely open to interpretation.

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Just to update you on this - The Ski Club of GB was most surprised that their insurance agents were saying they did not cover the Back Country, since they had assumed that was part of what had been agreed with the insurers (after all, all off piste is covered in Europe, including touring).

I just got back from a week skiing in France.

The latest I have had is this email:

"Thank you for your e-mail. We have been in contact with the Brokers and Underwriters of the Ski Club policy and are currently awaiting confirmation on their stance on this.
Our current understanding as of an hour ago is that they will cover back-country skiing provided this activity is simply an alternative name for off-piste and does not involve any ski mountaineering with the use of any specialist equipment. I will happily come back to you as soon as I have this confirmed."

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

snowball, hmm, how do they differentiate between touring (which they apparently cover in Europe) and ski mountaineering? Would they not cover you if you're using crampons and skins? Or ropes? Or only if you've got an ice axe?

After all it is free

beanie1, they cover "ski touring (including where ropes are involved for safety reasons)". Somewhat surprisingly they also cover "ice climbing (amateur) involving the use of ropes" if you have the Executive cover. Where the dividing line for Ski Mountaineering comes in is unclear. Not covering the use of skins is clearly ridiculous, as touring without skins is just off-piste skiing. The problem can be solved by using their Level 2 cover (50% loading on the premium) which then does cover Ski Mountaineering (and Ski Racing if that's of interest). But it's a bit strange then that they need you to go up to their Level 4 (70% loading) to cover Rock Climbing and Rock Scrambling.

Using crampons, ice-axe and harnesses is a differentiating definition used by Direct Travel - who do not cover Ski Mountaineering at all - but they do cover Touring along with Abseiling and Glacier Travel at the base level. When I enquired of them last year about the definition (e.g. for the common Haute Route you are likely to need crampons/ice-axe for about 100 yds) - and pointed out that it was standard to use a harness for simple Glacier Travel even when not touring at all - they said to get back to them with specific details of the itinerary if there was any doubt, and they'd give a specific ruling on a case by case basis. They do also cover Rock Climbing to HVS and Rock Scrambling with an additional loading (50% IIRC), but not Mountaineering or Ski Mountaineering at all. In my dealings with Direct Travel they have always seemed to me to, as said in another thread, take a pretty common sense approach to evaluating risk (when you can get to someone who understands the question, easier in the past) - but that differentiation seems the wierdest of all to me.

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