 Poster: A snowHead
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I have written this post with the objective of getting more 'comment' on this section of the forum.
I believe that it is not only 'experts' who can advise on the suitability of equipment but rather everyone can, and should, express a view if they have ANY experience on the subject matter. I fundametally believe that equipment and education are key to the skiiing experience - doesn't mean I am right ! Howver it is always interesting to read about other people's experiences - it is for the reader to make their own judgement on the efficacy of the advice to their own situation.
I was openly critical of the content following moosepig's thread about jackets and the amount of responses. m80euf suggested that it everyone could have views on jackets but that only the cogniscenti could / should comment on boots/ skis . I beg to differ, everyone's view is valid when based on their experience ( as opposed to hearsay). It doesn't matter if you are a 1 year beginner ( like me ) or a 'pro' with many more years experience and ability like easiski , your view is valid. I would even suggest that folks of a similar level can provide BETTER advice than those who are more advanced on some subjects ( e.g. equipment). The above comment doeas not apply to the 'learning' experience - ski instructors are 'gods' imho.
Some views to get people thinking ! I should add that I am a 51-yr old male who only started skiing this season , knackered knees, loads of lessons ( I NEEDED them), gear freak ( my problem!) who works as hard as he drinks.
Boots
Even after(during) one season , I am already on my second pair of boots. I have recognised (eventually) the importance of ski boots. I bought my first pair in Decathlon before I started skiing and was 'led' by the sales assistant.
The result of this experience was great comfort but a boot that I realised in the second week was too soft, too big and a waste of money despite its 'headline' features ( walk mode etc..) It did of course look good.
Following advice from folks here ( I wanted to go to Profeet) but was 'advised' that I was probalby not good enough for that kind of expertise !I have now bought Salomon Crossmax 'in resort'. Ostensibly a boot that was too 'good' for me ( this is the beginning of a theme) but a boot that had me purring like a Jaguar after a couple of days and I swear they improved my skiing. I bought them in resort and every day I went back for a health check. I confess that I stay open-minded on the subject of boots. My Tip If you are going to buy new , then
1) buy 'in resort' on the first day of your holiday. I can not see how shops can deliver against the real experience 'on snow'. If they do not follow 'basic' rules like fitting you within the shell without liner... go somewhere else.
2) Go back as often as you like, I did, and the bootfitter and I have agreed ( and this is normal apparently) .. any problems within a year and free fix/replacement
3) Look for advice on here before you go on likely 'good' fits .. at least you will have some focal points before you commit
Skis I have now learnt that these planks are secondary, howver I still find it the most confusing element of the experience. I should relate my recent experience ( or lack of it).
Being a 'Gear Freak' , I was deteremined to buy my own skis for 2006 having rented during my first year. Tip Do not buy skis until you can honestly say you are an 'improving' Intermediate.
I was fortunate enough to have advice from ssh and spyderjon here. I decided to take a 'punt' on Atomic B5s based upon economics, but still needed to test some skis based upon an excellent experience with Atomic SX10s. Consequently , with help from a ski shop, I was able to test Atomic B5/M9 also Salomon Equipe 10SC and Crossmax 10 and Rossignol RPM90 ( think that was all).
I really don't know how to report those tests as many of the skis are supposed to be for expert skiers so I can only report the facts as I saw them.
Skis : As above (all c 170cm , Metron B5 were 162)
Testers : Myself ( crap) and my Instructor ( ex French World Cup-Downhill and GS)
Conditions : Les Gets/ Avoriaz Spring - so everything from Ice to Slush
Salomon Equipe 10 SC - I could not believe how sloppy these skis were. They initiated turns easily but I felt very nervous at speed as they felt 'loose'. My instructor and I changed skis ( he assumed they were too much for me) - he found them sloppy which he admitted was strange given that in Dec 2004 he had seriously considered buying them as a 'lessons' ski ! His conclusion - poor for 'icy' conditions. Our conclusion was that these skis being a 'Hire' ski had lost their feel over the season. However, if you expect them to last for 5 years ????
Salomon Crossmax 10 - Suffered from many of the observations above. However we both agreed that they held an edge better when the conditions wre 'icy'. They also enabled me to go off-piste ( well, 30cm of powder!) , Performed better when the hammer went down on GS turns rather then short.
Metron M9 - I am an Atomic devotee. I hated these skis. Soft, wouldn't hold an edge. My instructor tried them and five minutes later they were changed, he described them as a 'Week 1 ' ski ...
Metron B5 - Benefited from being the last ski tried and one I had already purchased. Trepidation was huge, these skis should be too much for me. Admittedly they were 'privately-owned' and not a hire ski.
I was 'amazed'. I had, to date, always preferred Large turns. Suddenly this ski let me perform short turns at speed. Given that my only attempts with an Atomic SX11 had been catastrophic ( too much ski for me), I was amazed. My instructor got hold of them and he loved them too. Our adverse comments ( mine) , this ski doesn't like schussing, much happier on an edge when anyone at my level ( S&R 5/6/7 ???) will appreciate.
Jackets Do I really have to comment? Suffice to say I wear a one-piece ( stops snow going in the important bits). It is not grey ( favourite colour for Brits used to exposing their values on French beaches).. !!
Any comments???
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 16-05-05 17:56; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can you make sure to try the new Atomic IZOR next season?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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comprex, Why should I try them ? Methinks the B5 will last me forever - but I AM a gear freak and may just buy 2005 B2s this week ise has already told me off for getting '100' bindings !!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eEvans wrote: |
It doesn't matter if you are a 1 year beginner ( like me )
Any comments??? |
I'm not sure the year measurement is a good one, on the years scale I'm a relative newbie having only being skiing for 5 or 6, however one of those had 30+ days skiing in and the last had 90+ days (mostly doing lessons or courses) 
Just curious how many days skiing you've got into that one year? Not knocking you or anything - you seem to have made extremely rapid progress - certainly after my first year I wasn't really hammering it enough to say crossmax 10s were sloppy (might now though!)
Is the B5 a replacement for the SX11? Not really sure which are which with Atomic skis anymore since there seems to be a bewildering numbering scheme (SX7/9/10/11, B5:M5, M9, C9, R:Ex, so on, and so on,....  ) - I have SX10s and they are fine hard stuff skis
As far as boots go, I'm not sure there's much point in recommending a pair of boots to someone - imho that's a job for the boot fitter based on your individual needs/feet/etc. I spent a considerable amount of time in a Whistler bootfitters sorting my boots last season, but I still wouldn't feel any better qualified to answere boot fitting questions. Only thing I would say is that I'd thoroughly agree with your advice regarding buying them in resort so you can keep getting the little (and not so little!) tweeks done as you need them -helps if the happen to live there too!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 16-05-05 18:12; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eEvans, because I agree with 4 out of the 5 opinions above. You're a critic whose taste we know and there's new films due out.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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eEvans, I think there are perhaps a number of factors at work here that contributed to that thread maintaining momentum when perhaps some of those regarding boots or skis haven't done so and I don't think it's entirely because we're a nation of gear-heads who are only bothered about appearance rather than performance (although I like to kid myself I'm somewhere in the middle...)
I think what M80euf was getting at is that this was a general thread about something that skiiers and boarders of all flavours use both on the slopes and elsewhere. You've got a much higher proportion of individuals (close to 100%) with experience that might be directly relevant. For boots, you've got the subset of skiiers rather than dark-siders, then a subset of alpine rather than telemark, then a further subset based on ability. Sure, a large number of people cross those boundaries or experiences, but it's a much smaller number. I'd happily tell people about my Rossie freeride XXs, but I haven't seen anyone ask! Plus I think more and more skiiers who've done more than glance at these pages might make a decision on kit like boots based on what fits when they try them on (in a decent store, with an understanding of the fitting process and what you should be looking for, all of which can be gleaned from this forum, as you seem to have done) - sure, you can identify a few models you might like to try, but last shapes and foot volumes render your choice much more limited than whether a jacket comes in L or XL.
Absolutely agree with you that everyone's experience is valid, that's the whole point of these forums, but I'm minded to think that you made a bit of a stretch with your comments on the other thread. There was almost no comment on colour or style on the other thread, let alone whether anything looked 'cool' or not. I saw lots of interesting discussion about garment technology, some on sourcing these significant bits of kit and plenty of first hand experience from a range of people.
I'm not looking to start an argument here at all - I think we're playing devil's advocates for the opposite sides in this debate but it's a healthy one. I don't think there's anyone here who would 'poo-poo' someone's advice (at least I haven't seen it in 7 months of lurking and occasional posting). After all, we all know what happens when someone poo-poo's a poo-poo, don't we? 
edit: having just flicked back through the last four pages, there are a fair number of threads on bootfitting, skis, knee braces etc that break the 50-post mark, one in particular appears to have 170-odd... I don't think the other thread was anything too unusual in terms of the volume of response.
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| stuarth wrote: |
| eEvans wrote: |
It doesn't matter if you are a 1 year beginner ( like me )
Any comments??? |
I'm not sure the year measurement is a good one, on the years scale I'm a relative newbie having only being skiing for 5 or 6, however one of those had 30+ days skiing in and the last had 90+ days (mostly doing lessons or courses)
Just curious how many days skiing you've got into that one year?Is the B5 a replacement for the SX11? Not really sure which are which with Atomic skis anymore since there seems to be a bewildering numbering scheme (SX7/9/10/11, B5:M5, M9, C9, R:Ex, so on, and so on,.... ) - I have SX10s and they are fine hard stuff skis
As far as boots go, I'm not sure there's much point in recommending a pair of boots to someone - imho that's a job for the boot fitter based on your individual needs/feet/etc.
Only thing I would say is that I'd thoroughly agree with your advice regarding buying them in resort so you can keep getting the little (and not so little!) tweeks done as you need them -helps if the happen to live there too! |
Ok - Confession .. think I did c 45 days skiing this year BUT first 5 I couldn't stand up ! - and probably 60 (????) hrs private lessons ..
Atomic Skis - I am with you -- I loved the SX10 , but M9 was ?? SX11 I found difficult but B5 OK >.. Nonsense ! Marketing has a lot to say for itself IMHO
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| comprex wrote: |
| eEvans, because I agree with 4 out of the 5 opinions above. You're a critic whose taste we know and there's new films due out. |
I'm really sorry comprex but I do not understand the comments .. could you explain when you come back?? Maybe I'm just stupid..
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 17-05-05 8:15; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eEvans, i dont disagree about the usefulness of nonexpert views. The only thing i would say is that for skis/boots it's impt to state age, sex, weight and where u are on the Slush and Rubble scale. Otherwise the review would merely be a critique/affirmation with little practical use.
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| eEvans wrote: |
| comprex, Why should I try them ? Methinks the B5 will last me forever - but I AM a gear freak and may just buy 2005 B2s this week ise has already told me off for getting '100' bindings !! |
That's not fair, I did not, I only said for me the DIN range wasn't enough for me, if you're not as fat/good/powerful (delete as applicable) as I am then they're fine. But I ski at a DIN of 10 so having them at max isn't on.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 16-05-05 19:03; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ise wrote: |
| eEvans wrote: |
| comprex, Why should I try them ? I may just buy 2005 B2s this week ise has already told me off for getting '100' bindings !! |
That's not fair, I did not, I only said for me the DIN range wasn't enough for me, if you're not as fat/good/powerful (delete as applicable) as I am then they're fine. But I ski at a DIN of 10 so having them at max isn't on. |
Damn .. CAUGHT !! Yes you are right .. and I was being obtuse, SORRY ! I actually have now graduated to DIN 6 .... ( please read my previous 'knees' posts) so it was tongue-in-cheek !! ( I.e. I really am still learning !!)
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stuarth, 'B5' is a designation for 5-generation Beta lobe technology. There is thus a 'Supercross (SX) B5' and a 'Metron B5' as well as a Metron 11 and a SX 11. Quick overview here. The one generally referred to on these forums is the Metron B5.
eEvans, as pointed out above, this stuff can get rather to the individual's taste. From your posts above I am inclined to agree with your taste and say please post more.
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You know it makes sense.
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As far as the "advisability" of boots/skis for one's own purposes are concerned, I do agree, of course an opinion can and should be expressed. However some people do nip in and out of threads infrequently (they're not all fanatics reading each discussion from beginning to end!), and others are not necessarily aware of the degree of expertise of posters, regular or otherwise.
So I think that a degree of caution is in order when discussing equipment that is vital to safety in a dangerous sport. It is better made clear when opinions are based on limited experience, in my view. To me "advising on the suitability of equipment" would imply a relatively broad knowledge of a range of skis/boots, both practically in terms of skiability, as well as the more technical aspects. Personally I prefer to leave such advice up to the more knowledgeable, despite skiing around 100 days a year for 6 years up to last season!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Everyone's entitled to a view on gear or anything else, and, this being the internet, everyone's entitled to express their view. However, I (like everyone else) have limited time and I know which I'd rather read; a gear comment from one of the resident experts who have skied for years and years (and in some cases, I expect, years) or one from a relative beginner, however seriously they have thought about it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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richmond, the trick would telling the difference though  I'm not sure everyone can. Still, those sort of mugs deserve everything that happens to them I suppose so I guess I don't really care and neither should anyone else.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
As far as the "advisability" of boots/skis for one's own purposes are concerned, I do agree, of course an opinion can and should be expressed. and others are not necessarily aware of the degree of expertise of posters, regular or otherwise.
So I think that a degree of caution is in order when discussing equipment that is vital to safety in a dangerous sport. It is better made clear when opinions are based on limited experience, in my view. To me "advising on the suitability of equipment" would imply a relatively broad knowledge of a range of skis/boots, both practically in terms of skiability, as well as the more technical aspects. Personally I prefer to leave such advice up to the more knowledgeable, despite skiing around 100 days a year for 6 years up to last season! |
Uummhh .. interesting perspective. I think it is important ( like you ) that opinions are expressed. However , yes, it is important that the relative experience is known. I hope I have never positioned myself other than an advanced beginner ///// As for the S & R scale .. give me a break!! Levels 1-7 on a 10 point scale should be achievable within 1 yr ---- it's marketing hype. It's an insult to you guys who ski properly.
'Siutability' is however a strange thing .. what makes an 'expert' know what is good for an inferior being ? I HONESTLY BELIEVE that peer group views are valid . I played a dangerous sport (rugby) to a decent level but I couldn't have advised a so-called 'inferior' player for love or money on technique let alone equipment ( no jokes please).
At the end of the day should us 'newbies' leave the forum to the cogniscenti?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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richmond, No problem .. just ignore my posts . Sorry for taking up your valuable time 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eEvans wrote: |
| At the end of the day should us 'newbies' leave the forum to the cogniscenti? |
No, of course not. Where's the fun in that? As someone said on another thread, 'This is the internet, we're all experts.'. It's useful to know the experience of someone giving advice, but everyone should feel free to contribute.
I've been skiing for over 20 years, but I don't know or care enough about gear to do much more than relate my own experiences with my gear. Some people have obviously invested a lot of time in becoming gear experts, and it's great to be able to see what they have to say.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| eEvans wrote: |
'Siutability' is however a strange thing .. what makes an 'expert' know what is good for an inferior being ?
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Though they are likely to have a slightly better idea based on experience. (There was a lengthy discussion at http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=6724 on the desirable features of novice skis).
I'm not sure ski recommendations are that useful except for perhaps giving a shortlist of skis to try.
A few people told me that Seth Pistols were the greatest skis on earth, I tried them and hated them. Instead I'd say that my Volkl Karmas are the greatest ski on earth for me, however I realise that they have certain features that might make someone else really hate them. So I guess it goes back to the point of trying before you buy.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 16-05-05 19:57; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
| 'Siutability' is however a strange thing .. what makes an 'expert' know what is good for an inferior being ? I HONESTLY BELIEVE that peer group views are valid . |
I imagine for the same sort of reasons that you employ an instructor to help you improve your technique. It's his job to know.
Take your comments about the edge-holding qualities of various skis. Put an expert on any make of skis, assuming they have been correctly sharpened, and there is simply no way they will not be able to "hold an edge", particularly when conditions are not icy! Set said expert off down the piste blindfold and he will still not lose an edge. Especially your WC instructor! He must have been trying to humour you ... It's the skier that doesn't hold an edge, not the ski!
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 'Siutability' is however a strange thing .. what makes an 'expert' know what is good for an inferior being ? I HONESTLY BELIEVE that peer group views are valid . |
I imagine for the same sort of reasons that you employ an instructor to help you improve your technique. It's his job to know.
Take your comments about holding the edge-holding qualities of various skis. Put an expert on any make of skis, assuming they have been correctly sharpened, and there is simply no way they will not be able to "hold an edge", particularly when conditions are not icy! Set said expert off down the piste blindfold and he will still not lose an edge. Especially your WC instructor! He must have been trying to humour you ... It's the skier that doesn't hold an edge, not the ski! |
or even when it is icy!! When Whistler was reduced to a huge ice bowl in early March, and everyone was braquaging their way down the GS course, one of the coaches on his mad trix mojos (fat, not too much shape, softish) kindly demonstrated to his group how good they'd never be by doing a perfect run through the course, no skidding, extremely fast, perfect carves all the way. 
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 16-05-05 20:20; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just comes down to posting style in the end I suppose! When safety is involved I'm just not comfortable with making comments that can come across more as a statement of fact, so prefer not to get involved in the really technical areas. In those icy conditions you described when using the Equipe, I wondered how well tuned the edges were. At the EOSB Linds used a pair of our slalom race skis that had been sharpened properly for a competition a couple of days earlier. You could literally cut your hand just gripping them a little too tightly. That's how skis should be for icy conditions. Virtually no hire skis are prepared in that manner. They would have no edges left by halfway through the season!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'd like to express a compromise view. I think specific, personal anecdotal comments ("it worked for me") from relative beginners can be useful, as long as they're presented as such. However, I think most of us should think very carefully about making specific recommendations. Maybe that's echoing PG's "posting style" comment.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eEvans, It would help readers, I think, to state snow conditions, personal information, and what was attempted on the skis for each review. Matter of style, I guess, but I do not think skier level or just resort name is sufficient.
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eEvans, so u think most people on the slope are level 8-10? I wonder then what level u truly are!
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges wrote,
| Quote: |
eEvans, so u think most people on the slope are level 8-10?
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Did he say that? I can't find it in his posts. Those levels are just for laughs anyway. Most people can "ski" a black run without falling down if you define "ski" as coming down it wearing skis. Except "ski" isn't really the word for it
(And before anyone starts on me, yes, I can "get down a black on skis". No, I would not say I can "ski" it!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I like the way the S&R scale is geared to making people feel they're almost there. Applying "advanced" to level 5 is a joke. And from level 6 upwards by rights there should be another 20 levels or so!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ise wrote: |
| eEvans wrote: |
| comprex, Why should I try them ? Methinks the B5 will last me forever - but I AM a gear freak and may just buy 2005 B2s this week ise has already told me off for getting '100' bindings !! |
That's not fair, I did not, I only said for me the DIN range wasn't enough for me, if you're not as fat/good/powerful (delete as applicable) as I am then they're fine. But I ski at a DIN of 10 so having them at max isn't on. |
I've got some race bindings going spare that start at a DIN of 9 I think, any interest?!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| PG wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| eEvans wrote: |
| comprex, Why should I try them ? Methinks the B5 will last me forever - but I AM a gear freak and may just buy 2005 B2s this week ise has already told me off for getting '100' bindings !! |
That's not fair, I did not, I only said for me the DIN range wasn't enough for me, if you're not as fat/good/powerful (delete as applicable) as I am then they're fine. But I ski at a DIN of 10 so having them at max isn't on. |
I've got some race bindings going spare that start at a DIN of 9 I think, any interest?! |
Right now I'd say not, I was going to put Rossi Axials on the new B2's, they're more appropriate for that kind of ski.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
So if any of us here who have skiied more than a year are un"able to ski all the pisted runs on the mountain with a good degree of technique and style" or if we haven't "mastered the steeps, moguls and icy racy pistes" we're all underachieving
PS and yes, i do mean "ski" |
Though to be fair how many people normally ski 45 days in their first year? Some people would take 6 or 7 years to reach that many days if they are only doing one trip a week. Some people do a few lessons and thats it, some have more motivation, some people just have more talent/ability than others, etc, etc. Also I find that doing considerably more days in one season accelerates your learning (don't spend so much time remembering where you left off, likely to ski a wider variety of conditions, have more time to focus on fiddly technical things rather than just 'skiing' every piste on the mountain). That's why I asked how many days and how many lessons in my first reply - judging someones skiing ability by the number of years they've skied is in my opinion a very poor measure.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 17-05-05 9:05; edited 1 time in total
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stuarth, i agree - his quote not mine
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FAQ
) are part of this, and that the higher end of the scale needs to be stretched out with a greater number of distinct levels. However, my experience is that most people I see on a mountain do not exceed level 7 in ability, even if they think they do.
