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in /var/www/html/ski-forum/includes/xtrafunctions.php on line 3634 Divorcing lower body and upper body motion - getting the legs to turn and not the whole body, snowHeads ski forum
Anyone got any tips for getting the upper body to face down the blinking hill and not the ski tips?
This lack of twistability is mucking up me turns!
cheers
Dobby
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What do you think is stopping you from doing it?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Don't know, Rob. General inability? I am also not the most elegant or physically well-balanced of individuals (I tend to use leg strength a lot because I am quite strong)
One possibility is that I am a lazy sod and keep to blues a lot of the time - don't need to do many quick or sharp turns - easy option so that I don't have to concentrate much on technique.
Maybe if a got onto a nice wide red and tried it there, it may concentrate the mind on getting the technique right.
dobby, try doing it at very slow speed, down a narrow corridor rather than using the full width of a piste. One drill to help you focus on what your upper body is doing is to place your poles across your chest (and hold them in place by putting your hands on top of them in the middle). Any movement you make with your shoulders will be exaggerated by the poles swinging around.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'd suggest that until your ability not to pivot the skis in the transition is rock solid "facing down the blinking hill" is counterproductive. It will stop you from developing much needed skills. Leave it for higher level skiing.
If you want to learn to 'do quick or sharp turns" I'd concentrate on steering skills and edging skills - a good steered turn will let you have control over shape and speed of turn enough to ski most of the mountain.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 10-11-10 23:51; edited 1 time in total
If you do want to improve your ability to use the feet not body to turn I have done a drill with Canucks that involved short turns while holding poles behind knees. Hands go through knees to grab poles. Pick shallow slope with no people around. WARNING - needs some skills to turn but!
Other drills - snowplow wedeln, falling leaf chases, snoplow wedeln 3 turns then progress into short truns over X turns finish with 3 short turns, repeat... Draw a line down hill with two poles(very close together but maybe handwidth apart) - now walk back up and ski down the lines pole planting between them each time... Crabwalks... etc etc...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A loud Italian shouting "PHASE THEEE VAAAALLLEY!!!" all the time.
Modern tdeaching seems to be getting away from the compulsory swivelly top thing anyway. For short turns we are still expected to "PHASE THEEE VALLEEEYYY!!!", but I got told off for doing it on longer turns. There was some talk of the technical superiority of a squared off, wider stance making better use of core strength for control, but I think they were just jealous of my hand on hip "I'm a teapot" skis together hip turns. Combined with a bright stripey one piecce, neon headband and mirror shades, this is one style that will never go out of fashion.
In practical terms, stance problems like a hollow back will stop you twisting at the waist. Inner tip lead is in there too [tin hat on and look for incoming]
Quote:
(I tend to use leg strength a lot because I am quite strong)
Well relax and stop kicking the heck out of the snow. If you are applying leg strength throughout the whole turn, this may be your problem. After you've come round through the skis down the fall line bit, you can relax a bit. If you are still doing a power lift with your quads at this point you may be less free to move. The momentum of your body will stick you into the turn, all you have to do is ride it until you are ready to start the next turn, if you are relaxed, you can reach put your downhill hand on one hip and push back while reaching up and down the fall line with your uphill hand and singing the "I'm a little teapot" song*. The hand on the hip should make a fist as an open hand could look a bit less butch than you would like.
dobby, keeping the body facing down the hill as you connect a series of turns creates something called "ANTICIPATION" at the end of each turn, and causes the skis to want to do this: >>> http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Anticipation.html
For times when you want to pivot the start of your turns, anticipation is a great thing to use. As a default way to ski, though, it's not so good. Most of the skiing population has a built in pivot in their turn initiations, it's already a problem for them. Facing the valley just locks the issue deeper into their muscle memory, making it even harder to shed the bug.
Like little tiger suggested, make sure your clean, pivot free initiations are rock solid first, then use anticipation on an as needed basis. When you're not wanting to pivot, use only as much counter as needed to facilitate good lateral balance through the body of the turn, then eliminate it as you go through the transition. Holding it through the clean transition is an even higher skill level, because it requires a skier to actively fight the skis/feet/legs natural desire to unwind and pivot.
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I hasten to add that "PHASE THEEE VAAALLLEEEEEYY!!!!" Never seemed to do much good in itself. People who wer already in stable balanced postions could do it, while the others tried to turn their heads to look down while their shoulders were being wrenched into the turn faster than their skis. They would then go into a sort of traversing snowplough with lower tip lead and their upper bodies twisted uncomfortably so that their hips were facing 45 degrees up the hill and their shoulders were 45 degrees down the hill. The semi snowplough brought them to almost to a stop as they turned up the hill and then wrenched themselves round a sort of turn and repeat the whole thing the other way. The scraping of edges didn't quite cover the sobbing of the instructor.
Doing things with your upper body doesn't really help skiing much. In the seventies there were a lot of stlye points about putting arms here and heads there while hands had to be just so and shouders were to be at exactly this angle. The skis were all over the shop. Lessons now seem to work from the feet up
If a technique is right, it will look right. Trying to make it look right by imposing a style on it will not make it right.
Quote:
This lack of twistability is mucking up me turns!
How can you be sure ? If you haven't twisted in your turns, how can you know that adding this action will make you turns unmucked-up ? You don't define mucked up. Are you by any chance skidding after your skis are aligned with the fall line so that your turn is no longer round, but has a diagonal section where you gain speed so that you end up doing a series of fast side slips and traverses ?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
dobby, Salsa lessons?
(not entirely tongue-in-cheek either - always struck me as a very good way of loosening up the waist/hips. Never done it myself though)
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I'll qualify this by saying I am not an instructor so this is probably too simplistic. But I find keeping it simple helps me.
It is my understanding that you only face down the hill on short radius turns, not big wide carving turns. So on that basis one exercise that I found useful was to hold your poles vertically in the middle, at arms length in front of you...so they make the sides of a picture frame if that makes sense.
Do a run of short radius turns keeping the poles out in front of you facing down the hill so it frames a picture of the bottom of the slope. The first few times you will still rotate your body to follow the ski tips but after a while it does start to work. Just keep looking at the picture and you'll start to forget about what your skis are doing and it all starts to feel natural. It also helps you to keep your head up and stop looking down at your skis aswell.
I'll shut up now and let the experts tell you how to do it properly.
Good Luck
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dorset Andy wrote:
It is my understanding that you only face down the hill on short radius turns, not big wide carving turns. So on that basis one exercise that I found useful was to hold your poles vertically in the middle, at arms length in front of you...so they make the sides of a picture frame if that makes sense
A good starting point is to face in the direction of your momentum.
The picture frame exercise is useful, although it is possible to 'cheat' by moving your arms to keep the view in the picture frame rather than separating the movement of your upper body from your lower body. It can be a good drill to start a progression with, you can then make things a bit more demanding by holding the poles across your chest (or under your arms) so any upper body rotation is immediately obvious by your poles swinging around.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thirty06 wrote:
.............your turn is no longer round, but has a diagonal section where you gain speed so that you end up doing a series of fast side slips and traverses ?
Aah. So you've seen me ski, then??
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Maybe your piriformis are too tight in which case you are completely absolved from all blame.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I get the impression, dobby, - and it is what rob@rar, is getting at - that you may be thinking that you should be separating your upper and lower body all the time, whatever the turn shape. As rob@rar says, "A good starting point is to face in the direction of your momentum," by which he means your shoulders will be at right angles to the line you are moving along. Thus at one extreme in a big wide turn, your line of travel is pretty well the same as the line your skis are following. : no separation of upper and lower body. The more you shorten the turn shape and therefore the closer your line of travel is to straight down the hill, the more separation there will be. At the other extreme, doing very short turns, your direction of travel is straight down the hill so your upper body is also facing straight down while at the same time, you are turning your skis up to 180 degrees underneath you,
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ccl wrote:
[...] At the other extreme, doing very short turns, your direction of travel is straight down the hill so your upper body is also facing straight down while at the same time, you are turning your skis up to 180 degrees underneath you,
as much as 180 *
GrahamN wrote:
dobby, Salsa lessons ? (not entirely tongue-in-cheek either - always struck me as a very good way of loosening up the waist/hips. Never done it myself though)
there is a very good class and club in Lakeside Complex in Frimley Green, apparently, people come to this place as far and wide as Guildford !
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Snowdrop, "pivot slips" would be 180. I think these are what some folk call "braquage" but I'm not quite clear on whether that's the case. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You've got it Yoda, I was thinking of braquage indeed.
Braquage - useful skiing technique, or a boring pointless waste of time?
Great drill; limited context where you would choose to apply it in "real-life"; tedious if you spend to much time on it (especially if you struggle to do it).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
Fifespud wrote:
Braquage - useful skiing technique, or a boring pointless waste of time?
Great drill; limited context where you would choose to apply it in "real-life"; tedious if you spend to much time on it (especially if you struggle to do it).
I have actually learned to enjoy it and practice almost every day I'm on skis. I've even used it once or twice when I've accidentally ended up somewhere steeper and tighter than I thought.
Best thing for intermediates like me is though when you get your much more competent ski mates to try it they invariably make a backside of it. Nice to get the boot on the other foot now and again.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I practice it on steep hard packed smooth slopes - the upper part of the black "home" run into Grimentz is a favourite. I'm reluctant to ask my class to try it on Dendix for some reason
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Can somebody explain to me what braquage actually is ?
I only heard the term this year, although apparently it's from 1967 and is hard to translate into english. Online services suggest 'robbery' which might be profitable, but not useful in this context.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
"BRAQUAGE - A turning exercise whose objective is to maintain a descent directly down the Fall Line whilst turning the skis back and forth across the Fall Line and using little or no edging. Also known as a "pivot slip" in North America."
Taken from the glossary in the sticky at the top of this section.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Except I think the spelling should be bracquage - my mistake earlier on I fear.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
thirty06, here are a couple of pages from George Joubert's "Skiing - An Art...A Technique" where he describes braquage (Note the spelling )
These are linked images, clicking on them will take you to the zone where larger (legible) versions are available
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thank you all, for the above, especially the marvellous ski manual. Those illustrations are to my mind as good as a whole load of Youtube clips. Some of the explanations I've had seemed to imply that the skis had to stay flat throughout the whole manouvre and so I ended up catching edges. Swivel feet round and brake check, then rebound and do it again. Harald Harb would hate it (Joke!, I'm sure Mr. Harb is a kindly soul who has no animosity in him).
I don't want to seem churlish, but the glossary version doesn't stress that you travel down a particular fall line. Any turn can cause the skis to cross the fall line and a series of traverses linked by rotation snowploughs would fit that defintion. I know that's a bit picky, but I'm feeling pedantic.
Actually, that's what a lot of people seem to do on those twin tip off piste skis. I hear they have the turning circle of the Queen Mary, so I guess it's a good thing.
There you go OP, 'braquage'. Rotate your hips in their sockets andlet your upper body ride upon your legs as if they were ball bearings. It's a bit like the low down swivelly bit of the Charleston. http://youtube.com/v/cSFzLfgKKLI&feature=related, but with skis on.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
...and if you thought finding a translation for braquage was tough, try finding one for "vissage" - the nearest I get is "screwing"
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
yoda
...and if you thought finding a translation for braquage was tough, try finding one for "vissage" - the nearest I get is "screwing" Shocked
Riii...ght. I was wondering about that in the text. Was this guy just stuck for words ? I'm assuming that vissage is going round the turn instead of rotating.
Warren Smith loves his braquage! as well as testing out your hip rotation it also requires you to get your weight to cross the skis, good for confidence building.
He has some other 'dry land' things you can do to work on your ski fitness and flexibility away from the slopes
Let's twist again,
Like we Did last Summer,
Let;s twist again,
Like we did last year
etc.
I do recall some TV programme from the 70's where they were demonatrating skiing at Hillend and someone came down in a set of turns that looked like a reciprocating electric fan. The skis were a blur. Someone thirty years younger than I am now, I think, so I'm excused.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
swifty wrote:
been doing some of these today on my course, and i gotta say, once you get into the swing, its a usefull tool!
the lack of ability to divorce you upper body motion from what your lower body is doing may be down to a number of things but it is difficult to say without seeing you ski.
One possibility you may want to think about though is, are you unweighting your skis at the right point in the turn? one of the reasons for wanting to be facing down the slope through the turn is that as you unweight the skis your body is already 'pre-rotated' down the fall line so that as you unweight the skis are actively rotated into the fall line by your body doing the equivilent of letting go of a twisted sponge
It is fair to say that if you are doing easy long radius turns on a shallow slope that you may not want to face down the fall-line through the whole curve but you should be anticipating the turn and facing the fall line for the turn itself even if the traverse is done facing in the direction of the traverse.
If you are not unweighting the skis sufficently then it will be very difficuly to turn them with leg steering alone and your upper body will feel like its welded to your legs.
try going back to basics on a gentle slope and doing a 'james bond' (pointing an imaginery gun made by holding both hands together and out in front, sight along your finger and do plough turns keeping the 'gun' sighted at a fixed object. you may be able to get this straight away fo then move to your paralel turns and see at what point things start to fall apart.
think about your extension are you initiating youir turn with it or is you body fairly static up and down? have you done mice and giants drills, boot touching drills or basketball drills?
braquage is a good drill for divorcing upper from lower but if you dont have the basic unweighting right first you may find braquage frustrating and may just drive your difficulties deeper so till you are happy that your unweighting is correctly timed then i would approach it with caution.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
(Note: I don't work for Warren... just a groupie )
Always nice to see another groupie
I'm currently using a selection of exercises from Warren that work your piriformis (hoping this will solve the lack of rotation in my thighs). Could also help with your turning.
FAQ
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