OK all you instructor types, tell me about teaching kids to ski

A snowHead

OK, I'll poach the other other thread and start this:

With two of my own I know that kids learn everything at different paces and in different ways and it is very age dependant. Skiing is unlikely to be any different. Mine (now 10 and Cool

have been in formal 1/2 day ski school for their week long skiing holidays, mainly Swiss from an early age (about 3 years) and latterly in France. The Swiss method seemed very regimented - it gave them some good sound techniques and a formal progression system, but they enjoyed the lessons more in France (Arc Adventures and Pro Neige) and I think made more progress. Though I will say that cannot fault the excellent pastoral care that the Swiss school provided as part of their lessons.

Next Jan as we are holidaying outside of school holidays and found in the same time this year that they were plonked in a mixed ability class that held them back somewhat we are booking a private instructor to take them in a joint lesson for 2 lots of 2 hours. I don't know whether this will work, but it has to be worth a try, though I don't know if an instuctor will turn white when faced with two Minimums on twin tips Laughing

The thing is there is no real way I can know what sort of lesson he will give them - I don't just want for them to follow him around the lesson, I want for him to do some intensive teaching with them, but in a fun way so they actually learn from the experience. I assume this is a reasonable assumption. Could those of you with experience of teaching kids let me know if this approach is likely to work with kids as old as mine. How do kids learn and what methods do you find work best when teaching them? (That way I can guage the success of the lesson by asking the kids what they did wink

)

A snowHead

Megamum, It's a tricky one, as your expectations probably differ from your kids expectations. When you say

"I want for him to do some intensive teaching with them" what is it you want the instructor to work on ?

Of course kids learn differently to adults and my view is that it's more about giving them an appropriate environment in which to learn, and they will take care of the rest. How you do that depends on the kids in question and where they are in their skiing.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Well they are at the stage of being able to launch down the majority of on-piste conditions (maybe not excessively steep blacks, but they can start to get down them) in the somewhat fearless way that kids do, they can control their speed (when they want to), and link their turns in a controlled fashion when and where they want (when they want to), but it is all a bit..........err..........child like - its all arms and legs and couldn't really care less about what I look like doing it. I think they now need to gain a bit of control within their skiing control so it looks tidier, neater, giving a better impression of the control that they more or less already have. They nip off and zazz along, but I think they need to be a bit more regimented and ......err......'tidy' is a good word, and to learn that not every thing needs to be done as quickly as possible. I know that what I've just written gives the impression that they zoom off without respect for anyone else on the slope - that is not the case as anyone that has skied with them knows, but if I think if they skied more neatly and tidily that it could help them technique wise and they wouldn't resemble unguided missiles, which they aren't, but which flapping arms etc. gives you the impression they might be. Maybe at their stage of skiing that isn't what they need, but its what I think as their mother. What as instructors would you teach them next if I am not correct - I guess I will need to tell their instructor what I'd like them to learn?

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Kids are primarily visual learners and progress best by doing the activity with minimum technical explanation. They need to be kept on the move in a fun (& safe) environment. The content of a lesson depends on their ability and what you & they want to do. When I've taught kids of this age in a private lesson who are good skiers, there is no end of things you can do with them like intro to bumps and off piste etc. Skiing them all over the place working on core skills to cope with steeper pistes, bumps, variable snow, the park etc is important. But like david@mediacopy says it really depends on their level as to what the instructor decides to work on and how he/she goes about it.

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Colin B, That would be good, if this is how instructors would rather go about it then this is fine - I'd sooner not drop myself in it explaining - how long does it take for an instructor to get a measure of what stage a pupil is at in their skiing

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Megamum, A good one can tell from seeing them ski, very quickly. I know when I ski with easiski she points out to me the good and bad points of many passing skiers, young and old, from them just passing by.

After all it is free

OK.....my 2pence worth.

Kids on the whole learn a lot more visually than adults. They need to have fun and be enjoying themselves to stay engaged. Standing around and hammering through drills and technical explanations doesn't cut it, neither does straight forward follow the leader mind you. When I ride with kids I try to play as much as possible, have fun, be silly, hit the little jumps, nip in and out the trees, go straight, go fast, take the mickey out of those sporting the most gorgeous neon one peices, ride switch, flatland spins, blah blah blah

My general goal...enjoyment and developing the fundamentals. As the Austrians refer to it, the central position. Core strength and a real good stance. With kids I encourage a lot more versatility than with the older fogies, if you can get them to feel comfortable on their skis and feel free to move around on them however they like then they will develop balance and a strong central position far superior to someone who has only ever skied 'properly'(what ever the heck that means)

I think they did plenty of fun things last holiday - I got tales of nipping off through trees, playing in the snow park, riding the ski-cross course and they started dropping 360's spins in as they went down appropriately sloped pistes with us. Perhaps I should have banned ski school this year and given me a chance to catch up. The comments about kids learning visually is very interesting - they mimic what they see? - yes? As instructors do you all enjoy teaching kids or do you prefer adults?

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Am glad they are enjoying their riding. I wouldn't worry too much about the flailing arms and other body parts, refinement will come in time. If their stance and core position are good then them finding the limits of their balance and edge control etc is only a good thing imo.

Visual learning is learning the easy way. They are most able to recreate a drill or style from watching it rather than a technical explanation or an explanation of what it feels like.

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the best coach i know says that when teaching kids every session has to be inspirational... keep that in mind at all times and the detail sorts itself out.

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skimottaret, I quite enjoy inspirational too Toofy Grin

You know it makes sense.

I wrote a response but eclectic pretty much covered exactly what I wanted to say. Only thing I disagree with is that kids are mainly visual learners - I'm not really convinced that many kids spend a lot of time actually watching me, or can watch and copy the more refined elements - they're more absorbed in skiing. That's why "I don't want them to just follow the instructor" is a pretty bad standpoint, I can think of a lot of kids that've improved tons just because I made sure they followed me, and they've tended to be the kids that ask their parents if I can teach them again. Forcing them to push different boundaries in terrain or turn shape is massive.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

DaveC, I agree that whilst kids are not going to learn all movements or skills by just watching and copying, visual learning is still the main way they learn. For example, they don't tend to question why they are changing turn shape on a piste and try to understand the exact elements of a turn like adults might. They generally just watch you and try to match what you are doing without thinking about it. If you alter turn shape whilst descending a piste (or in the bumps, at the side of the piste etc), you can force them to use and blend different skills but this skill is being developed whilst they are skiing and having fun. And not whilst they are stood at the side of the piste, getting cold and bored, and playing up whilst you harp on about edging skills etc. Keeping everything interactive is also vital.

I've found that you get the best results if they get to experiment on terrain which excites them and where they can have an adventure, and are also pushed to try different things. I completely agree that you get great skill development and learning by using different terrain and turn shapes.

A snowHead

Megamum, It takes me about 3 turns to asses the skill level of a student - give me ten turns and I can give you a running commentary, and start formulating a lesson plan (we have to do on the spot movement analysis for our exams wink

).
At 10 and 8 I'd still expect to see children using more gross motor skils (flailing arms and looking unbalanced) to affect their movements rather than fine control and steady upperbodies and arms - unless they are on the snow every week wink

. They are also both at an age when they may appear more like small children where the head still effects their center of mass, thus they look as though they are sitting back all the time.
As for teaching them it's Play, Drill, Adventure, Summary. Play is the warm up, skill assessment phase. Drill is more formal teaching but may just mean "try this" and "lets call this movement Monkey"! Adventure is going to ski somewhere different, maybe harder so we can use the Drill we've practiced, and every time I shout "Monkey" we do that movement! Summary is just that - usually with the children and the parent at the end of the lesson.
Please don't tell the instructor what to teach your kids - what you want is often not what they need!
Oh, and although I teach in the Adult Ski School, I much prefer teaching kids! snowHead

A snowHead

juliad, yeah. It's just semantics really, I just see higher end kids following me as more kinaesthetic rather than visual - when I'm pushing the higher end kids they're just not going to have time to watch what I'm actually doing, their focus tends to be doing what they need to do to emulate my path. That's just nitpicking at the terms though.

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pam w, it's pretty much the main way I've been coached too, so it basically works for everyone snowHead

Nothing more frustrating than "Keep in my exact path, and try and keep up" - if you can't edge as cleanly as the person you're following it's impossible.

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Megamum, That's a really interesting explanation and touches on something I was blogging about the other week.

From your post it sounds to me that you would like to see an improvement in 'style', although that's going to pretty subjective when it comes to deciding what to do.

A better way could be to think about how they could improve in terms of the outcome - their control of line \ speed \ skid \ grip and etc. and in what conditions. While I understand that some will say leave it to the Instructor, I think that I'd want to have an input if I were 1. a parent and 2. paying for it. Not least because you will be skiing with them all the time. And this is different to suggesting to an Instructor HOW or WHAT what they might work on to bring about a change.

pam w,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

This is all interesting folks, it seems the lessons that kids have don't resemble the lessons that adults get in the way they are approached. So it seems there is there nothing that I'm ever going to be able to match them at ski-wise, already I am at the point of telling them they can ski as far as marker x and then if necessary wait, and every time now they end up waiting and when they feel mischevious end up looking at their wrists 'watch wise' as I get down to them - little imps!!

skinanny, it's reassuring to hear that a non-motionless upper body would be par for the course at their age. Have you any idea at what sort of age they might expect to start getting that under control? (Not that this isn't pots and kettles here Laughing

, but I want them to turn out miles better than me as they started younger)

It will be interesting to see what the instructor thinks they need as it sounds like they will have a completely different idea to mine, I guess it might be reasonable to ask him what they have been working on after the end of the first session? That way I can watch them to see that they keep it going between the lessons (lets hope its not too subtle!! wink

)

After all it is free

pam w, the point is it's impossible for a less capable skier to "bodge it" and still have the same results, so you can make it as challenging as required for the pupil and force them to adapt/keep them challenged... unless they can ski better than you, then you're in trouble Very Happy

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The Voice of Reason, Ah, I'd spotted that wink

That is what I meant about it being too subtle!! Laughing

It was a kind of a joke. However, if I can't tell then how do I know that they have received a decent lesson - when you think about when parents shell out on a ski lesson (and lets face it ski lessons aren't cheap) and you wave little Johnny/Joanna off with their ski instructor (and possibly enter the nearest establishment selling alcohol for 2 hrs) you are taking a leap of faith that you are spending your cash wisely - some instructors are more effective than others. When it is me getting a lesson I can tell whether I've had value for money, but how is a parent expected to tell this with a child's lesson how do I know if they have good or poor instruction? In fact that's not actually a bad question - can anyone tell me that please?

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Megamum, You don't - you trust their reputation based on the experience of others....and then take feedback from the nippers and make your own mind up, allowing for the balance of opinions ratio, of course (i.e if the opinions of the teacher don't necessarily match those of your kids, whose answer is actually the truth? Wouldn't be unheard of for the little darlings to decide between them that they would rather dick around on the instructors time, and then complain to Mum when the lesson is over.....resulting in the 'rents ranting and ultimately 'Doing a Pandora'.....search for just about any thread on the ESF to see examples rolling eyes

)

You know it makes sense.

This may be a snowy myth but I remember being told many years ago that some top Austrian ski gurus would just watch kids free- skiing to see what they did, how they coped with various situations etc.

After a while the gurus announced - Ah, now we know how and what to teach adults wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, I've paid for a lot of kids ski school over the years. I think you just have to relax and judge a school and lessons by safety, enjoyment and whether the kids are improving.

Certainly there was a huge change in my eldest's learning style from about age 12 onwards - where suddenly you could start talking about weight and rotation and timing and he could take it in. The temptation before then is to try and teach them in the way you would wish to be taught, and that probably won't work.

A snowHead

Megamum, I still think it comes back to your expectations of what you expect from the Instructor and lesson. Unless you are clear about those (and they are reconciled with what your kids want) it's going to be hard to make a judgement.

A snowHead

Megamum, I think you'll know from the looks on their faces! And whether they want to do it again. However superb the instructor, if the kids don't like them and don't want another lesson, then it's a failure.

Trouble is, once they're better skiers than you (and most kids don't take long to get there) you can't tell, really. I know that one of my sons is about the same level as me (because he hasn't skied that much and I have) and I could tell you what his faults are. But my other son is out of my league. I can't tell you what he would need to do to be even better - though he knows, having skied with some genuine expert instructors during his season in Val D'Isere. There was someone on SHs some time ago comparing his skiing with that of his wife. He said he was a much better skier than she was, so it really pissed him off when she could always beat him to the bottom of the slope. Laughing

Ultimately the only objective measure of whether they're skiing better is by putting numbers on it - which means skiing gates, I guess. That's maybe for the future?

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Megamum, sounds like you'll be too p!ssed to know either way.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

As someone who has been teaching all shapes, sizes, ages and abilities of skiers for a long time, can I add that the main thing is that they have a good time! If they are enjoying it they will learn something, if they are not they won't....simples!
I am not decrying the need for technical input and the selection of a the right instructor is vital, but please make sure they have fun.

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eclectic, it strikes me that it's the best objective yardstick. If you set up a slalom course, and send people down it, in what ways might the slower people be "better" than the faster people (assuming that the course is run several times, in different conditions, etc etc etc).

I might add that this is not a personal thing. I have never (well, not since my first ever ski holiday in Austria in the dark ages) been timed through gates.

What yardstick would you substitute?

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pam w, depends on objective surely? I don't think that a kid that edges/skis on piste most cleanly is guaranteed to be any good off the groomed. There'll be some transfer of skills, but it's definitely a different challenge. Race courses are only really relevant for budding racers.

After all it is free

Megamum, any instructor you get should be able to give you a clear summary of what has been worked on, and what has been achieved during each lesson - hence the Summary part of the lesson! Then you should be able to get a recommendation on what to ski with the kids, and what they should be feeling, thinking, doing. In general, I wouldn't be thinking of giving an adult style lesson to a child until about age 13, but it does depend on both physical and mental maturity. I have an 8 year old student who has a very quiet upper body and good technique and understands most of the technical stuff I throw at her, but her father is an excellent skier, she reads a lot and she wants to be really good so she can ski with her Dad. Most other kids seem to start getting a quieter upperbody at about 13 - which is also the age Squaw classes as adult for group lessons. wink

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pam w, that's the very last yardstick I'd choose.

My kids when they get lessons get taught bumps, powder and trees. Probably this is because all their lessons have been in N America, where they have bumps powder and trees... Wink

I want them to enjoy that and not all that can be assessed with running gates.

Help!!

OK all you instructor types, tell me about teaching kids to ski

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