 Poster: A snowHead
|
This insurance argument about being covered with or without a guide comes up a lot but it got me wondering what qualifications determine that you were with a "guide" when skiing off piste so that your insurance is valid?
is a trained ski club of GB rep a "guide"
is a BASI L2 instructor with an L3 Mountain Safety Module pass a "guide"
is a BASI L3 ISIA instructor not working within a ski school a "guide"
is it a high mountain guide ufiagmthingy whatsit the only true guide?
BASI has now made its mountain safety modules stand alone qualification, it used to be you had to be an ISIA teacher to teach off piste, now you dont...
BASI now says an L2 with Mountain Safety "can lead off pisted descents within the confines of the ski area boundary consistant with the laws of the country they are operating in."
"member who holds the Level 2 Instructor Qualification with the Level 4 European Mountain Security Qualification can lead off piste anywhere in the mountains. This can include uphill travel but must not include the planned use of axe, crampons, rope or overnight stays." Travel is restricted to non-glacial terrain. This remit has to comply with the laws of the country that you are operating in
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 2-09-10 8:53; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
skimottaret, The way I play it, only a UIAGM-qualified bod is a guide. I am of course happy to go off-piste with a suitably-qualified ski instructor off glacier - but then I have insurance that allows me to ski off-piste without a guide. From what you write, a ski instructor who holds the Level 2 Instructor Qualification with the Level 4 European Mountain Security Qualification could lead on glacier as well - I have been unaware of that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
achilles, sorry i left off the bit about L4 EMS is not for glacial terrain. only guides on glaciers or when PLANNED use of axe crampon rope or overnight stays...
few rec skiers ski with UIAGM guides and if off piste without one are you covered?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
skimottaret, depends on your insurance cover terms, IMV. You could argue that going with a suitably qualified ski instructor qualifies as skiing with a guide - but I would prefer not to have to argue in the first place.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I would see it, rightly or wrongly, as someone who was qualified to teach or guide off-piste. If my insurance specified off-piste only with a guide I wouldn't see that as a SCGB rep as they're not qualified to teach or guide.
Direct Travel include off-piste within their definition of Winter Sports with no mention of guide so the issue doesn't arise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I think you have to read the Ts & Cs of each policy very carefully.
My travel insurance says off-piste is covered with a "qualified instructor" (not guide) so I guess any old L1 would do...  However glacier is categorised as a dangerous sport and not covered without an additional premium.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMV, if it says "a guide" then that's what they mean. Also IMV, only someone who is UIAGM qualified can legally call themselves a guide.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have asked two brokers this very same question.
My old annual holiday insurance covered snowsports and offpiste "with a guide". My new one covers me "with a guide" or "without a guide so long as the area is not unsafe".
I asked both brokers/insurance companies what the definition of a guide was. Eventually, both said it was basically anyone who was doing the leading as part of their job.
The new one couldn't define what was meant by "unsafe" either. Eventually they sugested that if you'd asked patrol, and they said it was OK, then you were covered.
That is a very brief resume of pretty long phone calls though 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
i would assume the insurance co will take the narrowest possible definition but maybe i am just a cynic when it comes to ins cos 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Arno wrote: |
| i would assume the insurance co will take the narrowest possible definition but maybe i am just a cynic when it comes to ins cos |
Is, probably, the correct answer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I've dropped a line to Simon Calder, via his web site, on this - I realise he may think the off-piste skier is too much in the minority for him to consider, but equally he may not. Can't think of anybody better place to really get a measured response from the insurance companies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
skimottaret, if the policy wording does not give a definition (and there is always a section of definitions), then it is wide open to interpretation should it ever be challenged in court. Over-riding principle of insurance is that you should not act in a way that would put yourself in harm's way. So, for example, a complete novice skiing off piste alone (even though his insurance policy says he can) would be viewed as being reckless. An experienced off piste skier, with "all the gear" and being guided by someone with local knowledge (and not necessarily pieces of paper or badges) would probably be regarded as someone who took necessary precautions to avoid a claim. I think "what defines a guide" is something that would be considered after the event - in the case of a small claim the insurance co wouldn't put up a fight, but in the event of a monster claim, they would and would probably challenge everything in court - and that would be the case regardless of who you are insured with.
The interesting side of this is what happens if, say, one person in a group is seen as being the guide (even though he/she is just one of the group). ie I've skied a certain run many times before but the rest of the group have not and I offer to show them. Insurance policies all round might say that skiing off piste is ok without a guide but that doesn't stop major legal challenges if a few members of the group cop it and I am viewed as having put them in harm's way.
Mosha Marc, I think what they are saying to you is "you're on your own my son", because there must be a million safe/unsafe scenarios and they are not out there with you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, some interesting news you have posted.
Some answers to what you have mentioned.
A SCGB rep is not a guide or ski instructor and if you go off piste with him you must be insured to ski off piste without a guide.
Are you saying the new level 2 BASI Instructor can now teach off piste. For sure this is not allowed in France, even at level 3 (BASI L3 ISIA) or even level 4 (International Diploma) without the French equivalence. In fact although there are attempts to change the law, no Basi instructor of any grade can work in France unless they have also passed as a minimum the Test Technique and then they need to be sponsored as a Stagier (French trainee instructor). And/Or they need to have passed the Euro Test.
Personally unless they have a great deal of experience, many of these young kids finishing with a level 2 and a short 6 day mountain safety course would not have enough experience to safely teach off piste. Remember many of them go from nothing to level 2 in 10 - 12 weeks just after they leave school so I think people should be very careful who they get to teach them off piste.
The only real mountain qualification in Europe still is the UIAGM qualified high mountain guide although the Austrians are introducing something similar for ski guiding I believe. The Canadian already have one for ski guiding only which in my opinion is at the top level, equal to the guides ticket in Europe but ski specific. About time it was recognised in Europe as well, but I am sure that will never happen.
As for the Insurance issue. There is a long thread running already about just this topic. How about moving this discussion there to keep it all in one place.
I think there are many people that believe they are insured off piste but will very shortly here that they in fact are not, even by some of the best companies that have been mentioned here.
More details over on the other thread:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=60076&start=80
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
snowcrazy, Putting local laws in France etc to one side a level 2 with mountain safety can now teach off piste as it it within their remit if it is legal in the territory working. Used to be you had to have an ISIA stamp, the interesting bit is that the mountain safety is a stand alone qualification now and you can take the Euro EMS as a Level 2 if you have passed the first Mountain safety then be legal for leading day tours and uphill skins. Used to be only ISTD's could do that. Your point re the experience is taken but unless you are a level 4 instructor you are meant to be working in a ski school and it is the schools responsibility to match clients with relevant instructors. it would be unlikely a good off piste skier would be given to a newby L2....
Bode Swiller, davidof has mentioned this a few times that being a good skier and leading the way makes you the defacto "group leader" and can open you up to being a target for claims and prosecutions. worth bearing in mind and i would assume the insurance cos have a lot of general rules of thumb they cant possibly have thought through all the eventualities and it would be after the fact as you say...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
skimottaret, could you get over this by pointing out the way but getting others to go first, or would your superior knowledge/ski ability still trump this?
My first time at Nevis Range they opened after a snowstorm and I asked a Pisteur (what do the Scots call them?) where the back bowl was. He took me there and pointed the way, then waited for me to ski the first pitch first before following. (First tracks in powder - fantastic).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
snowball, maybe he was just being polite? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Perhaps both? He waited for me to ski the slope right as far as the traverse before following.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I have asked two brokers this very same question.
My old annual holiday insurance covered snowsports and offpiste "with a guide". My new one covers me "with a guide" or "without a guide so long as the area is not unsafe".
I asked both brokers/insurance companies what the definition of a guide was. Eventually, both said it was basically anyone who was doing the leading as part of their job.
The new one couldn't define what was meant by "unsafe" either. Eventually they sugested that if you'd asked patrol, and they said it was OK, then you were covered.
That is a very brief resume of pretty long phone calls though |
Who was that with Mosha Marc?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Linds, the first policy was with MMA and booked through Ryburn Brokers in Hebden Bridge.
The second/new policy is with "Oaks" and booked through my busness brokers; Oval in Wakefield. My contact at Oval is also a skier who goes off piste; so he could at least understand what I was talking about.
Interestingly, these policies are "free" when I take out home n contents insurance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Patrol will never say it is safe (except on piste of course) - it lays them open to prosecution if you get into trouble. They will, however, talk about the general danger level and recent danger factors and which slopes have historically been most prone to avalanche.... then leave you to make the decision. If you stated your intention to ski somewhere they would advise against it if they had serious doubts about the conditions - but if you simply ask if it is safe they will assume you don't know enough to be off-piste without a guide.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
snowball, begs the question of where you see the patrol to speak to them. I usually don't see them round the slopes, unless they are attending to an accident. Do you find a hut somewhere and chat to them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
achilles, the few times I have done so usually yes. Even then they don't make themselves easy to find (it should be on the tourist resort-info).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowball, Normally they mark the pisteurs huts on the piste maps in France with a red cross or similar as they are also first aid points, so they are quite easy to find, but someone might not always be inside.
I always try to ask about the conditions where I plan to go in advance and normally the pisteurs are honest about there advice if they see you are carrying the correct equipment and seem to know where you are going and not just 'following someones tracks'. But I do agree they will air on the side of caution or not be to commited to a route if they are not 100% sure it is ok. But I still think it is always worth checking with them first.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
skimottaret, I expect it's down to each insurance company's individual interpretation. All very grey!
Although ski teachers are not guides, as far as their professional liability is concerned, BASI Members are covered by their members' liability insurance as long as they are working within the remit of their licence and the local laws.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Why Insure?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
stanton, who would pay if you needed helicopter evacuation?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
