Last weekend there was a useful August snowstorm in the Alps, which added some depth to various Swiss glaciers. Saas Fee had different snow-reporting agencies quoting the depth of new snow as 5cm, or 60cm, or some figure between the two.
What is it with snow reporting?
The Ski Club of Britain reported 5cm of snow: here
PlanetSki quoted Warren Smith, out there leading a course - "60cm": here
WeLove2Ski reported 20cm: here
SnowboardClubUK reported SkiInfo data - 45cm: here
The above reports appeared on different days, although the SCGB and PlanetSki both filed their figures on 16 August (last Monday). WeLove2Ski got their report out a day earlier - the Sunday - by which time most of the snow had fallen. SCUK reported on 18 August, and said that another 5cm had fallen since the weekend storm.
It'd be interesting to hear from each of these agencies as to the sources they used, and generally use, and what they think would improve snow-reporting generally.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Here's another example from a very different location - Cairngorm - which I raised on the Winterhighland forum last April - here. It was 3 April and these were the figures available that day from three different agencies:
Quote:
Date Posted: 10.15hrs on Sat 3 Apr 10
According to the ski area's official site: "Mid-mountain 110cm, upper-mountain 310cm"
According to Winterhighland: "Coire Cas at 2600ft 210cm"
According to the Ski Club of Great Britain: "Lower slopes 60cm, upper slopes 130cm"
So ... who supplies the SCGB figures, and where are the lower and upper slopes mentioned? Where exactly is CML's "mid-mountain" depth measured? Where in the Coire Cas at 2600ft is the Winterhighland measurement taken?
[For clarification, the upper mountain/slopes at Cairngorm top out at 3600ft (i.e. about 1000ft above Winterhighland's 2600ft measurement location, which is about 600ft above the lower slopes]
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Intresting one, I know the SCGB rep in Wengen just used the official resort figures, the resort figures are always taken from the same location so remain consistant, however the location is out of the wind and shaded for much of the day , this means that it is entirely possible to get 5 to 10 cm of fresh powder snow which could be blown clean off winswept areas leaving ice or rock and into gully areas giving 60cm of powder
No one gives a hoot about mid summer snow reporting so I suspect they just make something up based on looking out of the bedroom window or a poor webcam photo. Re the rest I suspect that almost all snow report information passes through a resort marketing department or tourist office so I'd rather trust what I can see with my own eyes. Certainly in places like Whistler if you can get hold of the ski patrol briefing number it often gives a very different and more comprehensive picture to the resort snowphone which will major on telling you what great places there are to stop for lunch, how you should have a lesson as will as extolling the perfect powder/groomed perfection.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The Australian ski resorts - in high season now - are using daily video snow reporters (a.k.a. pretty girls) to sell the conditions:
Fatbob - very interesting. How does one get hold of said ski patrol briefing? I'm sure it makes interesting reading!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
David E Goldsmith wrote:
Here's another example from a very different location - Cairngorm - which I raised on the Winterhighland forum last April - here. It was 3 April and these were the figures available that day from three different agencies:
Quote:
Date Posted: 10.15hrs on Sat 3 Apr 10
According to the ski area's official site: "Mid-mountain 110cm, upper-mountain 310cm"
According to Winterhighland: "Coire Cas at 2600ft 210cm"
According to the Ski Club of Great Britain: "Lower slopes 60cm, upper slopes 130cm"
So ... who supplies the SCGB figures, and where are the lower and upper slopes mentioned? Where exactly is CML's "mid-mountain" depth measured? Where in the Coire Cas at 2600ft is the Winterhighland measurement taken?
[For clarification, the upper mountain/slopes at Cairngorm top out at 3600ft (i.e. about 1000ft above Winterhighland's 2600ft measurement location, which is about 600ft above the lower slopes]
The measurements on Winterhighland this season were taken adjacent to tower 9 of the Cas T-bar (a short distance above the Zig Zag / M1 Link) beside but not in the Gunbarrel Gully - you can safely add 1.5m to the depth to actually get the Gunbarrel Depth, more when its completely flat with no hollow.
I believe CML were measuring mid-mountain just below the mid-station on the Sheiling Tow area and the Upper Slopes somewhere in the Ptarmigan Bowl. Before any suggests creative selection of locations, it would have been possible to record depths twice, possibly 3 times that 310cm reported in the Ptarmigan Bowl at the time!
I have been told in the past, but have had no confirmation either way that the SCGB figures are not measured, but calculated using snow model / degree day ablation model that calculates a projected theoretical depth from short range forecast data. It's also been suggested by the ski areas that they simply make the figures up!
I would add however that the different figures just underline the fact that snow depths provide no meaningful information on snow conditions or the quality of sport on offer, they are though perhaps a good way of avoiding giving more detailed (truthful?) reports. The depths were provided on Winterhighland this past season out of curiosity having surveyed a cross section of the Gunbarrel area at that point in the autumn to ascertain a reasonable guestimate for the amount of snow required to fill it!
After all it is free
After all it is free
On one occasion this summer, one site reported a large dump of snow on Tignes glacier, but insisted that Les Deux-ALpes had had no fresh snow for several weeks, despite pictures on here to the contrary,
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I'd endorse Winterhighland's points above about fairness of the Winterhighland measurements, and those of CairngormMountain seemed fair and conservative. 5m snow drifts on the access road had been reported earlier in the season. The funicular track (up to 7m above the mountain surface, as I recall) had been buried in about 10 places in January, and was buried again in March. The restaurant at the Ptarmigan (near top of the ski area) had to be dug out several times. The snow that's still being skied on Cairngorm in August must prove that there were depths of 10m+ on some parts of the mountain.
In relation to the data above, though, the critical point is that there was a mega storm from 29-31 March ...
[the photos of the lower Cas and East Lady are particularly significant]
... so by 3 April [the date of the data above] the mountain was loaded with vast depths of snow, and roads closed all over the Highlands.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Where exactly is CML's "mid-mountain" depth measured? Where in the Coire Cas at 2600ft is the Winterhighland measurement taken
Has this one not already been done to death?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Yes - I didn't mean to quote that from the original Winterhighland thread. Sorry.
-------
Another report came in from Warren Smith in Saas Fee a couple of days ago:
Quote:
Another incredible day in Saas-Fee! Yesterday's 60cm's of fresh snowfall is now 75cm's. Best conditions I have ever seen here in the summer.
Warren Smith
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Farry wrote:
Fatbob - very interesting. How does one get hold of said ski patrol briefing? I'm sure it makes interesting reading!
Can't remember but its a number ski coaches, instructors etc have to dial into to get the non-public safety status/weather prospects etc IIRC. Its a while back so I'm hoping my memory isn't fuzzy with sitting on the chair with someone with a walkie talkie but I think someone gave me the number and told me not to spread it around too much.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I first joined the Ski Club of GB in 1962, and have written for the Club since 1978. At no time in that 48-year period can I recall the organisation explaining how its snow measurements are gathered, though the impression is certainly given that the information is independent. This is from the SCGB website:
Quote:
During the winter skiing season, the top 35 resorts with Ski Club reps are updated twice daily during the week and once on Saturdays and Sundays with info straight from the reps in resort - all other resorts are updated by 1:30pm every weekday.
No other snow report service offers such comprehensive and unbiased information.
Anecdotally, what DG Orf says above is in line with what I understood to be the case. Maybe a SCGB rep who has filed snow reports can explain the procedure. What puzzled me about the data quoted above, from Saas Fee and Cairngorm, was that - in both cases - the SCGB figures substantially understated the new snow on the ground, compared to other reports.
Measuring snow fairly and consistently is not complex at all. One can have - say - ten measurement poles at different locations on the lower slopes (or middle or upper slopes) and take the average between them. That evens out any bias that might exist, due to drifting.
Anyway, let's hear from the Club as to how the data comes in and can be verified as "unbiased".
---------
Snow reporting intelligence is, of course, moving more towards webcam and video evidence. I could think of nothing more valuable than for a snow reporter to ski 5 key runs at the beginning of the day and upload that footage to YouTube. A pretty face in front of the camera is great, but what we actually want to know about - and see with our own eyes - is how the snow is coating the mountain slopes, rocks, trees, and what its consistency looks like.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
David E Goldsmith, I think it may depend on the area that the rep is in, the Local tourist board snow report for Wengen is updated each morning during teh season and tends to be accurate and consistant so that may be why the SCGB use it. elsewhere they may take a ruler onto their balcony or have another method.
Snow reports by comercial companies I've always found suspicious at best, I can remember one year when one of the young ladies who repped for a well known tour company was in tears, it turned out that she had been accurately telling her company that the resort was closed, with the railway line slightly damaged and the cablecar out of action for the rest of the season due to avalanches, SCGB had reported similar, the tour company concerned was still sending punters out to the resort telling them that there had been a little damage but that it would be sorted out in a day or two and wouldn't affect their stay in any way... Unsurprisingly punters were a bit upset when they found out the truth and took it all out on the local rep.
Moral of the story never believe everything a tour company tells you, on the whole I've found SCGB reps reports of conditions pretty accurate, but I guess you need to check where they get their figures from
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
David E Goldsmith wrote:
....Anyway, let's hear from the Club as to how the data comes in and can be verified as "unbiased"......
What an excellent question for you to pose at the forthcoming AGM, David!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Snowdepths are like waves on a sea. There will be different heights at different points.
As with all semi-estimated data, just take an average or median of as many separate datapoints as possible.
Saas Fee probably got about 30cm from its recent puke.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Whitegold wrote:
puke
It's a shame that words like "puke" and "dump" - which we associate with revolting human waste - are used to describe the delicate magical accumulation of the purest white snow crystals.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
achilles wrote:
What an excellent question for you to pose at the forthcoming AGM, David!
It would be, except that this is the primary public information function of the Club. Therefore, I think a candid response in that domain is only proper. Since the snow reports are issued twice-weekly at the moment, it would be interesting to know the answer any time soon.
It's a shame that words like "puke" and "dump" - which we associate with revolting human waste - are used to describe the delicate magical accumulation of the purest white snow crystals.
I was surprised, when out in Tignes in November last year, to find huge sheets of white plastic covering the ground in the area that would be covered by the Le Lac web cam...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
In the early 00s I stayed with a buddy, who was a SCGB rep at the time, in one of the larger French resorts. He had to use the fax facilities of the local tourist office to report to HO. He copied the snow depths as used by the tourist office. Any further comments on conditions were vetted by the tourist office. If they did not like them they refused to send the fax.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 25-08-10 11:43; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
David E Goldsmith wrote:
The Australian ski resorts - in high season now - are using daily video snow reporters (a.k.a. pretty girls) to sell the conditions:
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
