Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 30-04-10 20:31; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, well I would maybe suggest a more positive pole plant, especially with his right pole - but I am a lesser skier than the guy in the video, so what would I know ?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This could be very handy for me! Exactly the kind of thing I need. Hopefully you will post up the appropriate analysis afterwards.
There is not a whole lot that I can see wrong there.
There is an occasional and slight A Frame. The inner ski is not always creating the same angle as the outside ski. The pressure appears correct with the majority on the outside ski nice and early in the turn. I like a short turn like this, working with bigger angles and more pressure would produce a nicer more rounded turn though. I like the minimal use of rotation in the turn. (from my understanding and training with L4's the short turn they are meant to produce is a slightly smudged slalom turn, using slight rotation combined with large angles and pressure)
Also at the beginning of the turn you can see the new outside ski drop back. Shoulders are still with the fall line so maybe just the hip is dropping back.
They are nice turns though, you can see he knows how to work a ski. Shame you cant show the kind of performance in the dome that you could on a steeper piste.
(from my understanding and training with L4's the short turn they are meant to produce is a slightly smudged slalom turn, little rotation but large angles and pressure)
It would be great to have more of these. My analysis skills are something I really want to work on. My focus is very much teaching based at the moment.
skimottaret, well I preface my remarks by emphasizing that I know nothing.... In the second example the poles aren't doing much, but then they don't need to, do they? Be no big problem at all doing that without poles. My comment would be that having sunk into the turn the skier then sits there quite comfortably for a while, rather than getting up more dynamically and ready for the next turn.
The reason I think that is because that's what my French instructor told me off for doing, when I was practising (on piste) for turning off piste. "Plus tonique" was his prescription.
so, "plus tonique!". How does that sound? He kept waving his stick up and down and shouting "Op!"
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, ok it is 6am and my eyes are not quite working properly yet... need tea!
1st guy - seems to need to get hips(pelvis) moving forward during transition - never seems to get to front of skis to get tips really working for him?
2nd guy - seem to create counter by dropping outside hip back - needs to do drive inside hip forward instead?
skimottaret, ok it is 6am and my eyes are not quite working properly yet... need tea!
1st guy - seems to need to get hips(pelvis) moving forward during transition - never seems to get to front of skis to get tips really working for him?
2nd guy - seem to create counter by dropping outside hip back - needs to do drive inside hip forward instead?
I'll try again when the tea hits
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I feel like skier 1 is edging so hard and fast he's actually out of balance for a brief moment and just relying on momentum and sidecut. Really hard to give an overall critique on that pitch with that turn shape - he's obviously turning like that on purpose, so talking about finishing turns/steering like the first thread feels a bit moot. General mobility again is an indicator for me that he's not constantly balanced on the edges - there's a lot of pressure that seems to being absorbed muscularly rather than by flexion? I have no concerns about his pole plant, I'd bet it's deceptively strong from the way his arms are moving and just unintrustive.
After all it is free
After all it is free
skier 2 looks fundamentally quite strong to me - the thing that stands out is the upper body initiating the turn. Seperation develops by phase 2, but it looks like initiaton is a bit laboured. I'd get them to do Braquage (sp?), or some form of pivoting drill, and potentially take his poles away since the slightly ungainly arm swinging forward seems to be at least a symptom of the upper body initiation.
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skimottaret, ok looked again....
skier 1 - still doesn't seem to get onto those tips... also has a bit of heel push happening...
Skier 1 is power pushing the tails to facilitate his turns.
The "Fat old Fitzwilliam" is better using the sidecut of his skis to turn. Decent skiing. To improve, I would suggest to him what Little Tiger did. The counter is good, but how it's being created (dropping outside hip back) is leaving him a bit too aft and loosing his angulation. See that slight inside shoulder drop? Drive the inside hip forward as you transition, at the same time your Center of Mass is crossing over into the new turn. It will put you right onto the front of your skis for the initiation of the new turn, and set you up to create functional counter. Keep the shoulders level as you continue to tip on edge.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
What the hades is a Fitzwilliam? Dang auto editor!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Just a brief browse as a break from essay writing, but there's not much I can see going wrong (no suprise, I'm not trained to at this level).
Skier 1 - could ski more aggressively, especially with the tips. He seems to be pushing the tails out rather than driving the tips. Waving the poles a bit in the plants too.
Skier 2 - some of the turn initiations are a bit odd, with the skis not at the same angle and starting to diverge. Leaning into the turn too much and thus weighting the inside ski too much maybe?
I wouldn't be suprised if these were symptoms of crap snow, low pitch and no room to build up speed though.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Also I'm not too familiar with the BASI terminology - what exactly is an A frame?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
clarky999, A frame = lower legs look like an A ... ie knees closer together than ankles
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Cheers, thought it'd be something like that.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
little tiger, spot on IMO.... do you see skier 2 getting on the inside ski too much? i do and its due to the weak outside hip me thinks.. also the transition is a bit poppy and the inner ski gets unweighted
clarky999, your rigth in what you see but what is the cause (the snow is never the culprit)
FastMan, skier 1 i think is doing what he has to for BASI short turns which tend to be a bit skiddy (it drives the trainers on the coaching side nuts) instead of clean SL sized turns basi "shorts" tend to have some checking as R555MAC says
on the performance side BASI seems to be trying to get more inclination in medium radius and GS turns
davec again perceptive as skier isnt seperating well
I picked these two skiers for side by side comparison for a reason ? who can offer up why?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, can't think why you'd compare those two particularly, but the titles really threw me - didn't expect weird teeny corridor short radius from the ISIA, and I didn't expect matey with bad knees to ski so well.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret, Yes re the too much on inside ski... I'd not have said "poppy" ... more a rushed transition - "chuck myself over to next turn" type of rushed - he seemed to be just rushing into the next turn... Sorry I described what I thought would be the stuff to work on to improve... other stuff may resolve a bit after counter developed from inside hip drive - he will be less backseat driving etc
not sure about the BASI "skiddy" short turns... I compare that footage to Paul on the link I posted and I can see Paul's skis engage after the pivot(when skis are light versus the tail push when skis heavy) and the skis are working from tip through ski more - or seem to be ... OK Paul is not in a fridge... but the turns look much more dynamic to me... If this is what they aim for it looks 'flat' to me... not much movement especially the hips seem very static... then again I 'grew up' with folks skiing like Paul and Reilly as my models - very 'poppy' but they like that rebound as it shows they can work a ski... Bumps with retraction/extension turns is another of their standard requirements for Level 3 (level 2 is ISIA stamp)...
what i wanted to do was have two guys with different styles and importantly body shapes. Skier 1 is maybe about 5' 5" a good athlete and late 20's maybe with very very powerful legs skier two is about 6' 4" and late 40's and seems to be trying to get rid of old school tendancies which skier 1 never developed in the first place.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, Ok - they seemed less different to me than you saw I think... I had two VERY different instructors as main instructors for a while... 1) 5'5" JUST - and really slight build - very light guy... skied bumps like a demon - instructors would beg him to run zipperline as demos for them! 2) 6'3" at least... and 100kg of muscle(high level athlete in 2 other sports - national level rower and raced motor bikes well enough to get Mick Doohans cast off's) He skied like a TRUCK... very powerful especially in long turns... was Oz team member when younger... also a Canadian provincial race coach...
One dug trenches - the other I could barely see his tracks unless it was fresh snow... One taught me technical aspects- physics, biomechanics, the other feel for snow... Each was distinctive skiing - you could see them and their unique style from quite a distance. I could even tell where the racer had been each morning while I was warming up for my lesson - anytime the snow was less than frozen solid I could pick his tracks!!!
For a better comparison here is a video of skier 2 making shorter radius turns similar to skier 1's. will their two very different body shapes manifest in different skiing or does that not matter?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 1-05-10 11:38; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret, is that you? not to let the cat out of the bag for impartiality or anything? Vid 2 makes it much easier to be confident about my analysis for vid 1, and also makes it much easier to see the root cause of it that Fastman and little tiger noted. I much prefer the look of skier 2 anyway, much closer to what I see in CSIA3/4s that train me than the weird tail and general weird lack of mobiility of skier 1.
After all it is free
After all it is free
little tiger, your right to point out the fridge element. indoors it is tough to get enough speed up to get as dynamic as your guys on a steeper pitch. you can skate down but then only get a few turns in so we tend to work from a standing start and the first couple turns are quite slow and gradual.
on these turns one thing skier 1 did at the very beginning was to rotate quite noticeably to start his sequence of turns. did you notice this? An exam fail imo as you need to roll into a series of turn smoothly and gradually...
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skimottaret, Not sure if it is on the vid I linked to - I think not... but Paul has a 'teaser' for a vid he is thinking of making IIRC that has some turns that are less dynamic(part of a progression)... and again IIRC he is still working the skis more than skier 1... (sorry not really certain as it may have been a video from Reilly)... just found it I think http://youtube.com/v/xkWbCxlRd9Y try that look for some drills on flatter terrain...
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little tiger, definately a much better skier than skier 1 as you would expect from a full cert demo team member! but lets remember we are working on MA when your 5'5" agile guy and 6'3" brute ski side by side what was the most striking difference in movements?
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skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, skier 1 i think is doing what he has to for BASI short turns which tend to be a bit skiddy (it drives the trainers on the coaching side nuts) instead of clean SL sized turns basi "shorts" tend to have some checking as R555MAC says
Hmmm - quite possible, and a pity if so - but it's probably not that there is a skid, but how the skid is generated/controlled. I was quite staggered when I saw your skier 1 vid, as that's probably the worst I've ever seen JP ski. Definitely agree with FastMan and little tiger re the heel pushing. Not sure whether it's just the different POV, but he looks much better engaged in run 2. I would have thought he could have got a lot more out of the skis by working the fronts of the boots more, as in little tiger's clips. I would say that both of you are a bit too upright in your boots at the transition, and could get much more tip engagement by having a more definite forward hip projection and ankle flex movements at the transition.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
from an equipment point of view, skier 1 COM seems to be dropped a bit back, possibly down to either binding delta being too great or boot set up.... adding a 2-3mm shim under the toe of the boot may allow presurisation of the whole ski
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret, 5'5" guy skis a much flatter ski... he is a flat ski skier - slide and pivot the big guy is a carve monster as you would expect from a racer - he can skid them if he wants to - but he is much more edge focused in his skiing... When he skis bumps he skis them LIKE A RACER - I've seen him GS turn in bumps - no problem... but that is the thing - he has no issues with just skiing like he normally does despite the bumps... the smaller guy skis the bumps he will run the zipper line... light on his feet with a deft touch for the snow he dances across it...
One skis the slop/slush etc by dancing over it - the other plows through it...
The small one prefers a short turn - the big guy will ski a GS or larger turn by choice... they make ski choices that are influenced by that (slalom radius ski versus GS radius ski) - the ski they chose to ski again influences their choice of turn...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
its not that he can't ski bumps... just can't ski and the bumps prove it
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GrahamN wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
FastMan, skier 1 i think is doing what he has to for BASI short turns which tend to be a bit skiddy (it drives the trainers on the coaching side nuts) instead of clean SL sized turns basi "shorts" tend to have some checking as R555MAC says
Hmmm - quite possible, and a pity if so - but it's probably not that there is a skid, but how the skid is generated/controlled. I was quite staggered when I saw your skier 1 vid, as that's probably the worst I've ever seen JP ski. Definitely agree with FastMan and little tiger re the heel pushing. Not sure whether it's just the different POV, but he looks much better engaged in run 2. I would have thought he could have got a lot more out of the skis by working the fronts of the boots more, as in little tiger's clips. I would say that both of you are a bit too upright in your boots at the transition, and could get much more tip engagement by having a more definite forward hip projection and ankle flex movements at the transition.
Yay - you say it better!!!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
CEM wrote:
its not that he can't ski bumps... just can't ski and the bumps prove it
Both far better than those two videos and the guys in the other thread - sorry if they cannot ski then these guys should all be failing exams straight out because the difference is quite marked.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
little tiger, lost me a bit. Where are people skiing bumps?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DaveC, she posted some video of some demo team guys running bumps... i was trying to get some MA discussion going and put up me and another guy at Hemel up for scrutiny. i cant see anything wrong in the demo team guy without getting ultra picky...
GrahamN, definitely a bad run from Skier 1, i was going to follow up with his second run. I gave him some feedback and he immediately made some changes on his
I would say that both of you are a bit too upright in your boots at the transition, and could get much more tip engagement by having a more definite forward hip projection and ankle flex movements at the transition.
i would agree with that, not too sure about being too upright in the boots but improving the hip projection is quite right. i also have been messing about with pulling ankles back to help with flex at transition. i tend to over flex at the bottom of the turn
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
skimottaret, I can't even see the bumps in those two links - and that's not a compliment to the skiers, the terrain is just flat compared to the evil shark's teeth horror shows I'm learning on.
Took me a while to twig that you were skier 2 - funny how the title (bad knees etc) gave preconceptions that took a few watches to remove. On the big vs small, I've listened to high certs discuss how they adapt their skiing due to their own makeup, but I don't really have any understanding to really have much input except that I'm probably a shade bigger than you and the small collegues irritate me in how slight they can be!
little tiger, a movement analysis thread really isn't the type of place to be slanging around insults like that. Just doesn't help, like in skimottaret's first thread the goal was clearly to get other instructors working on their eye, not dick measuring. I'd like to throw out there that our full cert type instructors probably don't benefit much from the actual movement analysis (I'm assuming this is pretty basic stuff for people like FastMan), so rather than baiting people or answering the question in a way that definitively concludes straight away, it'd be great if you guys could take skimottaret's lead and question/challenge people instead.
DaveC, the bumps are at the beginning and end of this clip http://youtube.com/v/xkWbCxlRd9Y (linked in the 11:47 post), but agreed that this is probably OT.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
GrahamN, gotcha, thanks. Those are indeed proper bumps, but yeah, not particularly helpful or relevant in this thread's context.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Referring back to the original clips on the op, these are the notes I made before reading the comments above:
Skier 1.
* Feet tending to come together, especially in the 2nd half of run (also a good example as skier passes the camera).
* Hint that the i/s leg blocking, more on l/h arcs (a frame).
* Ski' breaking away a tad, heel flick.
Skier 2. Solid, just a couple "nit picking" observations.
* Lifting i/s ski a tad at transition to right.
* in a couple of arc's after 1/2 way there was a 'dead' period before transition.
One of the differences between the 2 skiers is the width and consistency of stance.
Not watched the bumps one yet.
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DaveC, you want to talk about baiting it is CEM you need to speak to - look up a few posts
skimottaret I answered your question about the two instructors as you requested and CEM got nasty about my answer... not necessary
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little tiger, to be honest CEM's little jibe didn't make the slightest bit of sense to me, re-reading twice it still doesn't. I feel like there's a few posts been deleted or hidden from me... is this really all hinging on despite the bumps/ski the bumps? I don't even get how they can be two different things!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Vid 2 makes it much easier to be confident about my analysis for vid 1, and also makes it much easier to see the root cause of it that Fastman and little tiger noted. I much prefer the look of skier 2 anyway, much closer to what I see in CSIA3/4s that train me than the weird tail and general weird lack of mobiility of skier 1.
when your 5'5" agile guy and 6'3" brute ski side by side what was the most striking difference in movements?
