 Poster: A snowHead
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The summary: a good value, 12 night Canadian holiday organised by Ski Safari. We skied in Banff, Lake Louise and Jasper, and took in some spectacular scenery. Ski Safari were excellent in putting together all the elements of the holiday ie flights, car hire, accommodation and lift passes often at substantially reduced prices.
The detail: We are a group of three fifty-something couples, five keen skiers and one non-skier. We wanted a holiday that would have something for all of us and Ski Safari helped up put together a balanced package.
We had scheduled flights with Air Canada between Heathrow and Calgary. All very comfortable with reasonable legroom (and I am 6ft 4ins). We were really lucky to be on the last plane to land at Heathrow on 15 April before everything closed down because of the Iceland volcano dust cloud.
Ski Safari arranged car hire for us with Alamo from Calgary airport. We had two 4x4 Jeeps which were really needed given the snow and ice we encountered during the holiday.
We stayed six nights in a 3-bedded condo at the Inns of Banff, about 1km from the town centre. It was clean, reasonably spacious and had decent cooking and eating facilities. We used the local Safeway to get food to cook our own meals as well as tucking into the duty free. We then had 6 luxurious nights in the Fairmont Park Lodge in Jasper and at the Fairmont Chateau in Lake Louise. The trip to and from Jasper involved a breathtaking journey along the Icefields Parkway.
The Skiing. We skied eight days in four different resorts.
Much the smallest area was Mount Norquay, which is about 5 miles from Banff town centre. It has only 4 lifts not counting a nursery tow. One of these, which accessed the most difficult terrain, was out of action. There was good snow coverage but it was all fairly hard frozen and scratchy. There were a few runs from each of the working lifts but nothing very inspiring. Incongruously for such a small area, it had a massive, two level Ski Lodge with two restaurants and a bar which was almost completely deserted.
The other area near to Banff is Sunshine Village (about 10 miles out). There was no village as such (nor much sunshine). At base level there is a massive car park and gondola station that takes you up to the main ski area where there is a hotel and some eating places and a bar. Sunshine has a total of 8 chairs plus the gondola. The skiing is spread over three mountain faces. All pleasant enough and the snow was really good. It was also quite varied, with tree runs in one area and a very open face that was bitterly cold. The skiing off the Goats Eye face was the most interesting. It is also possible to ski back down to the base car park via a long and very pleasant run.
Lake Louise is a bit bigger and more varied still, but only has one gondola, 5 chairs and one drag up to the highest point. The snow was good and the runs there were longer than in the other resorts. We spent the first couple of hours there skiing with one of the resort’s “Ski Friends” who take you around the area and give you tips about further runs to do and those to avoid. The Larch area was particularly enjoyable for those (like us) who enjoy long, pleasant and not particularly challenging runs. There were also some lovely runs on the main face including the single black diamond men’s and ladies’ downhill runs. All of the area was slushing up in warmer weather towards the end of the holiday.
Our fourth area was a single day spent in Marmot Basin outside Jasper. An area with only 5 chairs, but they still managed to charge us 76 Canadian Dollars (£50) for a day pass (for 46.5 Euros you can get a day pass for the whole Three Valleys in France). The piste marking was particularly poor there with symbols stuck in the snow apparently at random, and then disappearing. I had to re-direct one snowploughing beginner who was heading down a black while looking for the green run which had just vanished. The snow there was good though and there was some very pleasant and quiet skiing to be had.
The five skiers among us really enjoyed the skiing on good snow and without any major queues (even on Easter Saturday when the massive Sunshine Village car park was packed, it didn’t seem that busy on the mountain). However, the runs were often short and to get the numbers up they would count as separate, two parallel variations of the same run separated by a few trees for instance. The other main difference is that there is no concept of “on” and “off” piste as in Europe. In Canada the whole area is regarded as “in bounds” and you can ski wherever you like – except where areas are roped off for avalanche risk. The so called “legendary steeps and powder bowls” in Lake Louise for example are no more than the big, mogulled open faces that you would see being skied off piste in Europe.
Canadian hospitality and friendliness was great, lift queues were minimal and well managed ... “how many of you? Three? OK would you like to ride with this guy?”. Food is OK and reasonably priced, though I was a bit shocked to realise just how many burgers I had eaten.
Having skied the big, linked French resorts the contrast with these Canadian resorts is marked. You don’t get the same sense of being able to travel. We often spent a couple of hours just going up the same chair and skiing the different variants off of it. It was nothing like being based in Courchevel and deciding to ski over to Val Thorens for the day. Even when we skied Whistler a couple of years back we had more sense of travelling around.
I am not sure that we would rush back to these resorts, but a summer sightseeing trip is definitely on the cards.
And I cannot recommend Ski Safari highly enough. Our whole package (flights, accommodation, car hire, lift passes for Banff and Lake Louise) cost about £1700 each.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Glad you enjoy your holidays. Though one can not stress enough that, for skiers who stay mostly on-piste, it doesn't seem to make sense to cross the pond to North America:
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The so called “legendary steeps and powder bowls” in Lake Louise for example are no more than the big, mogulled open faces that you would see being skied off piste in Europe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
Glad you enjoy your holidays. Though one can not stress enough that, for skiers who stay mostly on-piste, it doesn't seem to make sense to cross the pond to North America:
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The so called “legendary steeps and powder bowls” in Lake Louise for example are no more than the big, mogulled open faces that you would see being skied off piste in Europe.
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I must say I agree. But if you do venture off piste, the 'legendary steeps and powder bowls' are avi controlled, so its easier to ski seriously steep stuff on this side of Atlantic.
Swings and roundabouts ...
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abc, gortonator, Got to disagree. Would recommend North America to any skier or boarder for on or off piste. Have been many times myself to the Banff resorts and other places in Canada and the US and I prefer the relaxed feel of them over the usual European destinations. Maybe i've been lucky but i've never experienced an overly crowded slope, a lift that took more than a few minutes to get on, snow conditions which (bar one year) have always been excellent and never felt exorbitantly overpriced either.
I'll go for Europe if I only have a week free, but for a break of 10 days or more, i'll hop the pond.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Big Dave, I'm glad you had a good time. My one complaint about the Canadian resorts is that it would be great to see better deals on lift tickets.
Were you able to take advantage of the "in bounds" territory concept?
Personally I've never understood the "ski to x restaurant for lunch" thing... tried it a couple of times in Europe, seemed to involve a lot of traversing for a mediocre bowl of pasta. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
Glad you enjoy your holidays. Though one can not stress enough that, for skiers who stay mostly on-piste, it doesn't seem to make sense to cross the pond to North America:
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The so called “legendary steeps and powder bowls” in Lake Louise for example are no more than the big, mogulled open faces that you would see being skied off piste in Europe.
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Gotta disagree with the "don't bother with NA if you're piste only". The standard of grooming in NA is far superior to anywhere I've been in Europe and in NA they tell you which runs have been groomed. Much better service for a person who just wants to cruise around...
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| Scongie wrote: |
Gotta disagree with the "don't bother with NA if you're piste only". The standard of grooming in NA is far superior to anywhere I've been in Europe and in NA they tell you which runs have been groomed. Much better service for a person who just wants to cruise around... |
hmm - try Lech, or Ischgl, or Serfaus - just a few places I've been where the grooming is immaculate and very North American standard. And you don't need to be told what's groomed, it's simply implied by there being a run marked on the piste map. So much greener in Europe
One reason why north american grooming is generally good is that there is more snow here, and it's colder. Makes it easier to groom perfectly. But its nowhere near an exclusive talent - and when you ski north american resorts in warm or low snow conditions, you see plenty of dodgy grooming. Good reason to ski off-pitse ...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Good review and highlighting the key difference between N American and euro skiing. If a key feature of your enjoyment is "travelling" between different mountain villages or ticking off kms of piste then N American skiing will almost always come up short.
Re lift pass price I think you have to factor in what's included in N America e.g. all inbound rescue and first aid etc for free, higher service standard etc then consider currency exchange factors and the N American pricing model where only mugs or foreign tourists pay window prices due to loyalty cards/promotions etc. But I agree for day tickets definitely works out more against current sorry £.
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Thanks all for your comments. I have to agree that the grooming in Canada did not seem exceptionally good compared to what we have been used to in resorts such as Courchevel and Val d'Isere. Indeed there were a few runs that were desparately in need of some TLC. And I welcome confirmation of my view that the lift pass prices are over-steep especially taking account of the very few lifts that you get for your money.
Alexandra, we did travel widely around the resorts, including making use of the "in bounds" concept. We made our own tracks on some lovely fresh snow on some big open fields - lovely and memorable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
And I welcome confirmation of my view that the lift pass prices are over-steep especially taking account of the very few lifts that you get for your money. |
"lift pass" is really a rather poorly named peice of paper!
While it certainly entitles you to get "lifted" up the hill, it also pays for the grooming and marking of the trails, snow making and avi control, emergency evacution, and all the other infrastructure that goes with the area people are sliding down!
So the "number of lifts" has very little to do with the amount of skiing available, much less with the enjoyment of the actual skiing. The "number of lifts" in much of N America are planned rather than just happened as in some Alpine domain. While I'm pleasently surprised at the low price of lift pass covering some alpine domain, I'm less impressed by the "vast number of lifts" that merely covers the same ridge that I can easily skate around to get to. Seems like they hadn't put much thought to WHERE to put the lifts and just hapzardly drop them on the mountain side at random! (in some cases, I'm told these lifts belong to different company/owner, hence the maze-like setup). What a waste!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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abc, perhaps our europhiles would prefer the poma at LL would be instead changed to 5 x 200m chairs - or the gondola at KH swapped for 16 random chairs?
I suppose a sensible reason would be that from what I can see, and especially in Banff park, the Canadians take the natural environment very seriously - who wants 50 ugly chairlifts going up a beautiful mountainside?
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| Alexandra wrote: |
abc, perhaps our europhiles would prefer the poma at LL would be instead changed to 5 x 200m chairs - or the gondola at KH swapped for 16 random chairs?
I suppose a sensible reason would be that from what I can see, and especially in Banff park, the Canadians take the natural environment very seriously - who wants 50 ugly chairlifts going up a beautiful mountainside? |
I don't think anyone would want more unnecessary lifts, just a lift pass that is reasonably priced in terms of what's provided.
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You know it makes sense.
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Big Dave, remember the length and frequency and efficiency of the free buses included in the Big3 pass. Cheaper options are available if you stay at 1 hill.
KH could do with more of the originally planned infrastructure. Having no link to the top of the mountain other than the gondola is hellish on busy days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I like the service I get with my LL ticket - the avi control, ski patrol, first aid, etc., etc.
What I do *NOT* like is reading their website and seeing I can get a 2010-11 season ticket for $639 (IIRC) - and yet it's going to cost me far more than that in individual tickets if I make it out there this winter...  As fatbob says - very harsh on us dumb tourists.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Big Dave wrote: |
| Alexandra wrote: |
abc, perhaps our europhiles would prefer the poma at LL would be instead changed to 5 x 200m chairs - or the gondola at KH swapped for 16 random chairs?
I suppose a sensible reason would be that from what I can see, and especially in Banff park, the Canadians take the natural environment very seriously - who wants 50 ugly chairlifts going up a beautiful mountainside? |
I don't think anyone would want more unnecessary lifts, just a lift pass that is reasonably priced in terms of what's provided. |
I suspect the economics aren't out of line - smaller size and fewer mid week users means most resorts probably run a loss 5 days a week then make it up at the weekend. The idea of pricing per km or per lift doesn't necessarily work - what makes big Euro resorts "good value" is the reciprocity between neighbouring communes etc. Go to Banff and you can ski 3 resorts on a reciprocal basis with a Big 3 pass, in North Tahoe for example if bought in advance you can buy multiday vouchers covering at least 7 resorts for around $65 a day at which point you can start comparing £ per km/lift
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's no question daily lift pass in N. America are on average more expensive than in Europe. What I was taking issue of is the same "number of lifts" in N. America typically serves considerably more terrain than the same "number of lifts" in many european resorts.
Vail and Whistler are the two biggest resort in N. America. Still, the "number of lifts" on paper are no more than many small European resorts. Yet, an average skier trying to get to all the far flung coner of the ski domain in one day would end up missing a great deal of the good lines in between!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lift passes in Canada seem a lot to people from the UK partly because of the exchange rate. In fact a lot of resorts have fixed prices in last 2-3 years since we have been here, so they certainly aren't going up. Blame your deficit and your prospects for a hung parliment. Think it willl be expensive for people from UK for a while.
When we came on our reccie 3 yrs ago a pound bought 2.35$CAD, when we arrived end Nov 2007 it bought around 2.05. Last october around 1.75 and now nothing (~1.54)!!
My bet is that they will be down on their numbers next year because of the cost of passes fro Europeans. Us locals get a fairly good deal. We will buy a nakiska early bird season pass for $1000 for family of 4 and a Sunshine card will be ~$80 each and get us 3 free days and 4 discounted days (if we ski 7 days). We do find it expensive to go to some other resorts, but someimes get discounted tickets or special deals.
BC will be even more expensive season 10/11 due to the new Harmonised Sales Tax - this I believe will add an additional 7-8% on prices as I think in previous years they have been subject to GST, but exempt from PST.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Big Dave,
I'm Nick, from Ski Safari. I noticed this post through a Google search so I registered Ski Safari on here to say thanks for this glorious review. I'm glad you're happy with our service and more importantly, that you had a great holiday. See you again next season? Thanks again,
Nick
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SkiSafari, Hi Nick. Yes it was a great holiday. We will be staying in Europe next season - two weddings to pay for, but another long haul maybe the year after and we will certainly consider using you again.
Cheers
Dave
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If you haven't already booked, get yourself to Villars-Gryon, Switzerland. I went for the first time this winter just gone. Probably the prettiest resort I've ever been to. It's not the best for advances skiers, but great if you're taking the family. Here: http://www.skisafari.com/Ski-Switzerland-Villars-Resort-Info.aspx
cheers,
Nick
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FAQ
I'm more likely to focus on just ski one sector of the domain for a day, then explore a different sector on another, instead of trying to ski from one end of the domain to the other and back in one day just to say I've done it! 
