Cham

A snowHead

Hi folks;
Didn't manage a trip this season, gutted!

I'm looking at Cham for 10 days from Dec 23rd, but a few people I have spoken to have put me off, saying it's "hard core" and not really a touristy place, which seems a bit at odds with what I am reading elsewhere.

So, have any snowHead

been (I'm assuming a fair few have), and can give me an unbiased opinion?

Thanks in advance...............

A snowHead

No I can't give you an unbiased opinion, here's a biased one instead..........

best skiing on the planet snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks midgetbiker, can you give me some more detail, we're used to the Portes du Soleil, is it comparable?

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Oh it's definitely hard-core...but that doesn't mean that it's not touristy as well. There's some very hard-core skiing, but there are plenty of pistes as well (though I wouldn't recommend it for beginners), and some pretty accessible off-piste.

It's slightly more awkward to get about than some resorts, as the ski areas aren't linked (except by bus). If you're happy to spend a full day in one place then this isn't a big deal. Cham has the advantages of a big town (for a ski resort): lots of places to eat, drink and shop; non-skiing things to do. I've heard this also means it can get pretty busy in holiday times.

What I don't really know is what the snow is like (which would be a major factor in deciding to go or not) - I've only been in April. I'd guess the Argentiere at least would be snowy and skiable, but someone else will turn up and tell you the real answer shortly...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Standee, always a tough one to describe, chamonix has some of the best skiing you will find, but it is a bit split up compared to somewhere like portes du soleil .... it is a comecial town with a series of ski areas around it, you either get the bus or drive to each of these areas, different areas suit different levels of skier.... le tour for example has some great off piste in the trees down to vallocine but some nice cruisy intermediate runs on the front side..... grand montets is suited to your slightly more advanced skiers (you could argue that they are both good fro all skiers) biggest problem is if you have a group of split abilities with you as if someone is in lessons and you want to meet up it may limit everyone else going to where they want to

that said the town is great, plenty of great eating and drinking, in most cases just not very ski in ski out!

but i love it

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Standee, I'd probably not go there again without access to a car, fairly difficult to get around on the buses. Incredible skiing though, and a nice town.

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Thanks folks, it's a definate no for me then, unlinked areas and not ski in ski out, Portes du Soleil again it is, unless anyone can reccommend somewhere else but with similar resort features.

After all it is free

Saalbach Hinterglemm, or the Arlberg if you want more offpiste.

Standee, I'm with midgetbiker, I'm biased.

I've spent 42 days there over the last two seasons. There are more than enough slopes for the non-hardcore skiers and, in my opinion, enough slopes for beginners too. The first season I was there I had a car. The second season, I used the bus. Car is better but I had no problems using the bus to link between mountains. Next season I'll probably do the car thing again.

Fantastic skiing both on and off piste. Great atmosphere in the town. Locals are very friendly.

Oh god, what am I saying (it's busy enough as it is). Don't go there. It's terrible. You'll hate it. Twisted Evil

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Zero-G, I agree.

Chamonix is poo-poo. Stay well away!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Standee, I've done just about all my skiing over the last 2 years in and around Chamonix & Verbier, in March I used my free day passes to take my 4 year old to see a friend who was on the slopes over in the PdS, and I couldn't believe the difference. Honestly an hours drive and it was like another world. There is nothing wrong with PdS at all, I don't know it at all well and I'm sure there is a boat load of good/great skiing to be had, but to me it had nothing like the 'atmosphere' of Chamonix.

In Chamonix I feel like I am in a mountain resort and not just a ski resort. If that slightly meaningless description resonates with you at all then I suggest you will like the Chamonix experience, if you have no idea what I might mean then probably stay away as there is no denying that Chamonix has some practical drawbacks.

Final word - my (then 2 and 3 year old) daughter has never complained that the place is too hardcore Cool

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I can understand some people vhermently defending Cham, but it really doesn't sound the place for us, busses to lifts, a disjointed scene. I go skiing to ski, not spend my time on public transport.

Standee, you should only be on the buses before and after the lifts are running wink

Big linked area, ski in/out, like PdS...Espace Killy?

You know it makes sense.

ChrisWo, seconded - Espace Killy is a fantastic ski area, I don't think anyone could fail to enjoy it, I always have.

Standee, I'm not defending Chamonix, it has a number of faults (like the queues for morning cable cars on the 'wrong' week). What I was trying to convey was the feel of the place, which (aside from the jaw dropping scenery & top off piste) is what I love about Chamonix. If you 'click' with Chamonix then you are from then on doomed to find a certain something missing from any other (excepting to a degree Le Grave) ski destination, that I have so far visited anyway.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I'm no hardcore skier, and have only skied on piste in Chamonix, and not very often. One week suffered very badly from terrible snow and enormous queues (mid January) but having a car, getting around wasn't a problem. I love the scenery, and I like the mountain atmosphere (in Chamonix the ratio of genuine mountain-men to tooled up posers always seems better than in other places) but it doesn't sound right for the OP and I fully understand the gripes about the place.

The most obvious ski in/out and big linked areas in France, I suppose are Tignes/Val D'Isere, La Plagne/ Les Arcs and the 3 Valleys. They're a bit different from the PdS though, aren't they? Some of the lower villages around Paradiski (which I don't know as when I was in La Plagne the snow was rubbish down to those areas) might come close?

A snowHead

Standee, when you say you're looking for "similar resort features" to the PdS, which features are you interested in? Staying in Morzine is very different experience to staying in Avoriaz, for example, despite being within the same ski area.

You might still like Chamonix. It certainly feels more like a town than a ski resort, in a way that few other places do (similarities to Morzine in this respect), and if you're a bit of a piste-dodger, it's amazing. However, I can see that if you like a bit of cruising around with stunning scenery, it would also be good, as long as you're not that bothered about covering multiple valleys in a day. The linked Brevent/Flegere ski areas are accessible from lifts on the edge of town (as is the Aiguille du Midi and Vallee Blanche, but there's no pistes here), and it's only a short hop on a bus for the other areas, where you should be happy to spend all day. Don't pay too much attention to Batman123's opinion of getting around, she has difficulty catching an organised coach from outside her hotel...... wink

If it's the big interlinked area that you're after, I would have to reccommend Tignes/ Val D'sere (Espace Killy)

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Standee, and just how ski in and out is most of the accommodation in the PDS? And just how linked up is Les Gets f'rinstance?

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Have been to Chamonix skiing twice and twice in the Summer. Have also been to PDS skiing and think both are fantastic but they are very different. We had issues with the buses and queues as we were there in peak time and also because we had varying levels of abilities and lessons etc. PDS was great from that aspect and made for a more relaxing holiday. However there is something that draws you back to Chamonix, the fantastic scenery and setting of the town and the buzz.

Another vote for the alternative of Tignes/Val D'Isere have skied there several times and if you want somewhere new that its a good bet.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Standee, Doesn't sound liek Chamonix is for you vut I'm sure there are other alternatives to PdS that you would enjoy if you are looking for a change. When you say resort features for PdS can you give some examples and which village(s) did you stay in in PdS? Also what is your level of skiing and do you prefer a big interlinked area to get in the mileage or would also enjoy somewhere smaller and more intimate?

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Standee, Can I suggest you look into Montchavin a fantastic rustic Savoyard village in the La Plagne network. There are pros and cons and having spent a season there I know them quite well.

Pros - Rustic village - even had a working farm yard with live stock running around when I worked there in early '90's. Its a very short walk to either of the two lifts out of the village, and finally it is the point where the Paradiski lift connects to Les Arcs

Cons - it is low at around 1200m but I never had trouble skiing down to resort even in late April due to good snow management by the lift company and good snow making. There is very limited self catering accommodation in Montchavin itself but the standard and cost of chalet holidays to this resort is very good.

I hope this helps. PK

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After owning a mobile home in Chamonix for 8 years I would say it is as good as any other French resort but the skiing areas are not linked, except Le Flegere and Brevent and that is just one cable car. The slopes are generally very steep, especially in Grands Montets, or if you like the flat areas are hard to come by. There is also the famous Vallle Blanc which is off piste with a guide to avoid falling into the crevasses which claim victims almost every year.

There is no doubt in my mind that other surrounding areas, like PDS, Grand Massif (Flaine/Les Carroz/Morillon/Sameon) and Domain Evaison(Megeve/St Gervais etc) are more suitable for the non-hardcore or intermediate skiers. These areas are all under 30 minutes drive from Cham.

The bus link in the Chamonix Valley isn't bad but the distance is long between the two ends. A car is only the sensible solution to explore the valley fully.

Chamonix is right at the junction point between France, Italy and Switzerland so the neighboring Italian Courmayeur and the Swiss Verbier are within the striking distance of a car.

To be fair one has to ski at least Les Houches, Brevent, La Flegere, Grands Montets and Le Tour/Vollorcine before understanding what Chamonix is made of.

After all it is free

We're both at the top end of intermediate in terms of ability, we can both ski anything if we are of a mind too, but the ide of shot, steep terrains and having to go off piste isn't for us. I've been to Val and thoroughly enjoyed it, but not for more than 5 days, the stuff is just samey, Face is meant to be tough, it's not, it's just steep and icy, that isn't my idea of skiing.

We've stayed in Morzine, Les Gets and Avoriaz, we have also ski'd Saalbach, Flaine, Courchavel, Deux Alpes and in Andorra, I like to be able to not wait more than 10 minutes for a lift, not have to treck in boots from bus stops to pistes etc.

I've also been to Banff and it just isn't the same, no charm of sophistication there, I imagine the USA to be the same.

we are now considering Zermatt, Meribel and Courmayer (sp)

It never used to be this difficult, we've gotten picky!

apologies, I haven't said thanks for all the replies, very much appreciated.

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Have you thought about Kitzbuhel?

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Standee, Zermatt, Zermatt and Zermatt again. My favourite resort in the Alps and you'll love it. Just make sure you get accommodation nr the Kleine Matterhorn cable car station as otherwise it's either the bus (free), the electric taxis (12chf) or walking through town.

Meribel is awful and Courmayeur is lovely but a bit small for a week. Zermatt gives you the great combination of combining Switzerland and Italy (Cervinia) in one holiday. And you'll never grow bored of the the view of the Matterhorn..... Very Happy

Here's some Zermatt pictures from an old thread http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=62294

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Standee, Espace Killy is great (honestly!) but perhaps only if you exploit the almost limitless off piste opportunities. I agree with BobinCH; Zermatt should tick all of your boxes. Lovely in the winter (but horribly full in the winter, in case anyone was thinking about it) with a cracking ski area. And don't miss the pianist in Grampi's; "You Took the Words Right Out Of My Mouse" is a classic!

Zermatt - does not disappoint. There are better skiing areas but its infrastructure, ambience and scenery is top notch and stands shoulder to shoulder with St Mortiz, St Anton/Ischgl, Cortina Ampezzo and Aspen. You do have the option to ski two countries at the same time as Italian side Cervinia is as big as Zermatt. It can be expensive in the Swiss side though.

Meribel is the busiest skiing area in this planet. Good place to ditch your partner. Just tell her to wait there at 5pm at the bottom of Mottaret chairlift and she will never find you again.

Courmayeur is too small for a week. People normally do a day trip from Cham as it is included in the ski pass. I say this because you have been to Saalbach, Flaine and Deux Alpes which are resorts of decent sizes.

There are many skiing resorts too big for a week. 3V is one but Paradiski,(Les Arcs+La Plagne), Espace Killy (Tignes+Val D), Zillertal Valley (Mayrhofen, Hintertux etc), Milky Way, Serre Chevalier, Dolomites, SKi Amade, Ske Welt.....are all to be explored. Place like Les Gets/Morzine/Avoriaz is only part of 600km piste PDS. What about its Swiss side?

You know it makes sense.

Thanks (again) folks;

I've done most of the Swiss side of the PdS, we're best described as "mileage monkeys" when it comes to what we like to Ski, if I spend longer on the lift then I do on the piste then I tend to get a bit grumpy!, we've done "The Wall", yes it's difficult, but it's also really quite boring (to us).

Zermatt looks great, but really struggling to find somewhere that will take us from Dec 23rd to Jan 2nd, and the flights are well, silly, I am starting to think I am maybe trying to do all of this too early, should I just put the money in the bank and revisit it in August some time?

It's always difficult as you never know if last minute is best, but with VAT due to go up then I guess a fair few ither snowHead

's might be looking at booking early.

In 2011/12 I think I'll bin working for the season and drive The Alps, try everywhere once!!!! (we can all dream!)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

If you are really a mileage monkey then Sella Ronda of Dolomites should be a milestone. The circuit is about 42 to 45 km long including lifted distance but you can do it clockwise and and then anticlockwise in the same day. Most skiers would be happy to go round the world's biggest skiing loop once. There is also the World War I skiing circuit. Both are big loops each going round 4 different skiing resorts.

Try 1200km-piste Dolomiites for its size if you want mileage as it is the most spread out skiing place. Sella Ronda has 510km piste linked but spread out over 4 resorts each is big enough to ski the whole week. You have to ski 4 mountain passes to complete the loop.

A snowHead

Sella Ronda sounds interesting once, but not for 9 days.

A snowHead

Standee, what about the Milky Way - Montgenevre, Claviere, Sestriere etc. I've just been there last winter and I'm thinking of taking my family next year (I was on an offpiste holiday but really liked what the place had to offer to intermediates). Montgenevre is quite nice in itself (and offers varied skiing) but it's at one end of the whole domain.

I would also echo the Dolomites - you don't need to do Sella Ronda each day, base yourself in Corvara for instance and you have many options heading towards Arabba / Marmolada, or San Cassiano, or Selva Gardena. And the scenEry is absolutely fantastic.

Or for something closer to PdS, Les Arcs / La Plagne will offer huge intermediate mileage.

I haven't fallen in love with Zermatt - but that may be unfair as I've only ever visited it for one day at a time, coming from Cervinia.

(edited for spelling)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Standee, "I imagine the USA to be the same"

Jackson Hole?

Utah? (a little driving to be done but the skiing is awesome).

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Standee, March/April is the best time for Zermatt as (particularly the off piste) benefits from good snow cover, but each year we go for the first weekend in December - 2 years ago it was powder heaven and last year there wasn't enough cover for much off piste but on piste was excellent. Try the tourist office to do the legwork for you in finding somewhere that will take your dates. And when researching flights keep in mind that Zermatt is equidistant from both Geneva and Zurich airports. Personally I think the ski area is excellent (underrrated) - big, varied and the links have improved in the last few years, the scenery is stupendous, the mountain restuarants are best of anywhere I've been and the town is pretty, full of character and good fun.

horizon, come ski the Schwarztor with Joel and me next season. We'll change your opinion Very Happy

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

BobinCH, you're selling me on it. My opinion, (stupidly) was founded on seeing Cervinia and a single run (long, long traverse) around Zermatt down from some glacier or another after a heli drop. Sounds much more interesting than I thought!

Help!!

Cham

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