 Poster: A snowHead
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Being a Finn, I'm curious about this. I've seen it mentioned many times: the snow is better in Japan and so forth, compared to the alps. Or in France, the snow is better in this area than it's over that area. Could someone be so kind and explain? Is it related to the temperature and relative humidity? What else is there? If it's steady -10c and it's been dumping for five days, what's the difference between St. Anton and Hakuba? Or Whistler? Is it the propability of having the right temperature with suitable humidity? And what are they?
Our language is very rich in regarding the snow. There is dozens of different words for different kinds of snow. So we know this subject relatively well. I just want to educate myself further with the secrets of skiing, and learn where I would like to go to find something new and exciting.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From my experience spending winters in
Ellmau, Austria; La Plagne, France; Civetta, Italy; Big Mountain, Montana, USA; Kicking Horse, BC, Canada; Park City, Utah, USA; Keystone, Colorado, USA; Niseko & Kiroro, Hokkaido, Japan (10 winters)
the SW area of Hokkaido which includes the Niseko Resort Area, Niseko Moiwa, Rusutsu, Kiroro, Sapporo Kokusai & Sapporo Teine has in my opinion the enviable and rare combination of QUALITY, QUANTITY and CONSISTENCY.
QUALITY - low density powder comparable to the best quality snowfall of resorts like Alta, Utah, USA
QUANTITY - in the 10 winters I've been keeping records the average annual snowfall at village level (~300m) has been 13.5 m
The worst winter has seen 10.5 m at village level
This puts it in the same neighbourhood as places like Mt Baker, Washington; Alyeska, Alaska; Alta, Utah (all in the US)
CONSISTENCY - 90 to 100 snow events each season
Once the temperature drops below freezing in late November, it doesn't rise above freezing until mid-March
Add in
trees to the top of the mountain which allows skiing during a storm
low skier concentration (compared with other powder meccas)
relatively tame and open terrain which limits the formation of moguls / scraped off snow
Many have 1 or 2 of the above (Quality, Quantity, Consistency) but very few places in the skiing world have all three, and that's why I feel Hokkaido is a very special skiing destination and why I've spent my past 10 winters there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Moi. Well it likely depends on who's using the term. What's "good" to me is possibly not good to other people. Short answer: it's the moisture content of the snow, and also what the weather does to it once it's fallen.
Most people like dry snow. So when Utah claims to have the "greatest snow on earth", they mean "the driest". So that's low - maybe 5% moisture content if you're lucky. Colorado is pretty dry too (look at where it is on the map...), but doesn't tend to have the steepness.
In BC on the coast (Whistler), the weather's... coastal, so you're more likely to get "precip", but it's more likely to contain a lot of water. I don't know the numbers, but the snow's typically wet - I don't know, but perhaps 10-15% moisture. This snow you need to ride "in the storm", as it "sets up" once the storm stops. That is, the top layer tends to compact in the warmth and so you get "upside down snow", where the top is heavier than the stuff underneath. The riding's better in the storm. There tends to be a lot of this snow, but it's not great. If you go south from there into the US, then the temperatures are warmer... great for volume, not so good if the freezing level is above you.
More inland you mostly see less precip, but it's drier - it's colder and has already dumped water on the coastal stuff. If you go away over to the other side of the rockies in Banff you'll find radically different snow from Whistler... and usually less of it. In my opinion Banff snow quality is higher than Whistler, but your chances of riding freshies here are much less. It's a trade-off.
There are places in between where some people think that the compromise of snow volume and moisture content is ideal. Mike Wiegele is famous for finding one of those places. Revelstoke is also mostly excellent for similar reasons. These places are geographically "in the right place".
Finland... I only rode in the deep south, but the snow was pretty dry and the air temperature cold so it kept good over time. The downsides were lack of particularly regular dumps, plus when it's below minus 20 or so "good" snow becomes "squeaky" snow which is therefore no longer good as it runs slow, even with the right wax.
The Alps... other people here know more than I do, but the Alps aren't known for particularly light and dry snow. More likely you'll get good dry snow high up, then it will get steadily wetter as you descend. Whilst that's also true in other places, the descents in the Alps are quite large and the effect more noticeable there. There may be other weather issues I'm unfamiliar with in that geography.
Oh yeah, that's all for riding fresh snow in winter. If you're talking about spring / corn snow (see: English words for snow), that's a different deal again. You can get "good" spring conditions, but they're never as "good" as "blower" powder in the trees in December.... it all depends.
The best education would be to visit all the places you mention and then you'll know. Personally I don't have a "favourite" type of snow; as the Canadians would say: "it's all good".
--
This language too is rich in terms for snow: firn, graupel etc - whilst the origins of those words aren't here, that's a different point, so our language too is rich. Unlike our population who are 20% poorer than they were of course  And counting.
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Proximity to the sea.
Direction of wind.
* Warm sea + warm winds = wet snow (e.g. European Alps);
* Cold / no sea + cold / no winds = dry snow (e.g. Utah).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Cold seems to do it for me, at least in Austria.
When the snow comes from the north you can get really legit dry blower powder.
When there's more west in the direction it's always a bit warmer and wetter.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Don't forget cloud structure and wind. If the clouds are turbulent the snow flakes can get recycled back up through the cloud and can get a build up of extra ice layers making for denser heavier snow. If the storm is very windy (as often found in NZ) the the flakes can get battered and loose their structure which means they pack together more easily resulting in denser heavier snow even when it's nice and cold.
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@philwig,
Seems to have it all covered.
One of the things I have noticed over the years in the alps is that the way the weather system moves through is important. Often you get hit by a warm front that drops a lot of wet snow (or worse - rain), then the warm sector where you get less snow for a period, then the cold front hits and you get some nice light snow. How good the dump is depends on how much you get form each front but it is often surprising how even just 10-15cm of the light stuff effectively "top dresses" the whole fall and keeps you from digging in too much to the wet stuff (unless you get very thuggy with your skiing).
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Great thread.
Actually a lot of people (on here at least) talk about the quality of the snow in terms of good coverage, ability to hold the snow, whether it gets slushy or not... rather than about the quality of the pow. Many people see very little pow or don't ski it!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm very interested in this as I've chased big dumps in the past but then been disappointed by the snow being heavier than I had hoped or had experienced on previous occasions. I think this is a hugely important variable for powder hunters though you rarely hear it mentioned in forecasts (occasionally on wepowder).
Why is Japan so fabled then given its an island nation? Or Alaska, is the skiing there not near the coast too? Yet I've heard lads say how its the lightest snow on earth?
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What often happens across the Alps (especially in March / April) with the heavier dumps that they can be attributed to Atlantic depressions staying low across Bay of Biscay tracking across Europe resulting in mild and windy conditions on the UK South Coast (I know this being a wind/kite surfer for many a year), I can then relate this to what's happening across the Alps (though here I'm focusing on French Alps).
The subsequential snow often results in a good snow fall but you have to stay high to get the powder or relish the spring snow conditions.
What I have found is that so often after a good dump, the wind then picks up and we end up with risk 3-4 conditions that then makes the trees the best option until things settle down.
And skiing storms / post storms in Jan / Feb is all about avoiding the wind and dangerous conditions.
So yes to a great dump, and then pray for a cold still night to suck the moisture out to produce the powder, great in Jan / Feb but by March those clear skies warm the snow up too much and then you're into freeze / melt cycle.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's funny but I don't really care about the 'good snow' which equals powder apparently. I spent most of my childhood messing around in trees in a waist high snow. Dreaming about long piste and speed. Now that I'm finally able to get to the long piste of the alps I don't bother anything off piste. I love top to bottom runs non stop. The longer the better. As long as the snow stays below zero I'm fine. Fresh dump or hard packed piste basher snow, it's all fine for me.
We have a few nice but small places to ski here in the southern Finland. The actual skiing is very limited but they all have excellent parks. Which is where I head after a couple of warming runs. When jumping around the quality of snow is the least of my worries. I'm just amazed what an average ten year old can do with skis compared to a sad old man like me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| 8611 wrote: |
I'm very interested in this as I've chased big dumps in the past but then been disappointed by the snow being heavier than I had hoped or had experienced on previous occasions. I think this is a hugely important variable for powder hunters though you rarely hear it mentioned in forecasts (occasionally on wepowder).
Why is Japan so fabled then given its an island nation? Or Alaska, is the skiing there not near the coast too? Yet I've heard lads say how its the lightest snow on earth? |
Whilst the west coast of Japan and Alaska have maritime climates, the large, frigid air masses which collide with these land masses - from Siberia for Japan and from the Arctic for Alaska - results in large volumes of low density snowfall over the winter season.
Alaska has slightly wetter snow earlier in the winter which allows the snow to stick to steeper angled slopes. The subsequent snow binds well and allows for a steep & deep experience.
The main island of Honshu can get big 24hr snowfall accumulations of 1-2 metres which can vary from heavy to dust.
Being further north, Hokkaido receives less snowfall in each storm, but the snow is consistently drier and lighter than that of Honshu. Almost daily falls of 10-20 cm is the norm for December and January.
The terrain in the most popular resorts is less steep than Honshu though.
The best bet for light powder conditions anywhere in the skiing world is to choose a resort which has extensive tree skiing and ski during the storm.
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| 8611 wrote: |
I'm very interested in this as I've chased big dumps in the past but then been disappointed by the snow being heavier than I had hoped or had experienced on previous occasions. I think this is a hugely important variable for powder hunters though you rarely hear it mentioned in forecasts (occasionally on wepowder).
Why is Japan so fabled then given its an island nation? Or Alaska, is the skiing there not near the coast too? Yet I've heard lads say how its the lightest snow on earth? |
The snow in Alaska is not particularly light IMO. When I was there it was mostly pretty heavy (and wet lower down). We had a couple of days with fairly light powder, but it wasn't much different from what you'd get on a good day in the alps. The snow in Alaska comes from large storm systems that roll across the North of the Pacific and typically comes down quite wet. It can get very cold in between the storms, which I've heard "sucks" the moisture out from the snow - although i'm not sure how this mechanism works exactly! Sublimation?
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You know it makes sense.
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| musehead wrote: |
| 8611 wrote: |
I'm very interested in this as I've chased big dumps in the past but then been disappointed by the snow being heavier than I had hoped or had experienced on previous occasions. I think this is a hugely important variable for powder hunters though you rarely hear it mentioned in forecasts (occasionally on wepowder).
Why is Japan so fabled then given its an island nation? Or Alaska, is the skiing there not near the coast too? Yet I've heard lads say how its the lightest snow on earth? |
The snow in Alaska is not particularly light IMO. When I was there it was mostly pretty heavy (and wet lower down). We had a couple of days with fairly light powder, but it wasn't much different from what you'd get on a good day in the alps. The snow in Alaska comes from large storm systems that roll across the North of the Pacific and typically comes down quite wet. It can get very cold in between the storms, which I've heard "sucks" the moisture out from the snow - although i'm not sure how this mechanism works exactly! Sublimation? |
There's variation throughout the winter and you may have caught a warmer, wetter storm.
But Alaska gets plenty of 'blower pow' days.
I believe it's sublimation. But too many sunny, cold days can lead to serious surface hoar development.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@lmu2002, Lots of reason why snow is different, but I will try to cover the basics!
Temperature, some resorts have a more consistent cold temps over a season, removing freeze, thaw effect and the snow pack stays better
Snow type, some areas, the snow that falls is drier, and has a lower moisture content, other areas, have higher moisture, so for example, the snow that falls in Whistler, is ifluenced by low altitude (in the village) and proximity to the ocean, the snow higher up will be diffrent to the snow in the village, say compared to Snowbird, which is 1,500KM from the nearest ocean, and its weather fornts cross a desert before reaching snowbird.
Same in the Alps, some of the mountain ranges get their weather coming form the different weather fronts meeting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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This is one of the best simple guides I've seen to snow and snowfall. Colorado forecaster but you can get the gist, also expalins how local specifics of orography can make a big difference to snowfall e.g. why does Warth get so much snow.
http://www.slideshare.net/findOpensnow/colorado-snow-forecasting-101-27540804
My take on Europe is we have a lot of temperature volatility along with things like Blocking Highs in the West of France/Spain and Fohn/Mistral events from Africa. So our pow is on average wetter than interior N America though not as wet as say Whistler/Pac NW.
Wet snow has its benefits in that it consolidates better often than drier snow which means
a) it sticks to steeper/rockier terrain better
b) it is less prone to avalanche (OK this is only a generality and not a safety rule)
This does mean that people ski lines in Alaska that they would never do in Colorado for instance (although some would say that's because Colorado doesn't have steep mountains)
I have had pow days at a number of places that really were not pow - about a foot or so of fresh but you could wring the water out of snowballs (this is typical of some of the big spring storms in Europe too as the snow line is marginal). Actually fairly unpleasnat skiing first lap while untracked and legbreaking after that with a little set up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There's some interesting USA-specific information and data on this site:
http://bestsnow.net/
Terribly laid out website, but there's a page comparing average water content of snow in Colorado resorts (7% ish) to Pacific NW etc (12-15% ish)
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