 Poster: A snowHead
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My thighs collapse in when I'm skiing. It's not an A frame as such, as I am able to work both skis with the same edge angle. However, it does impede my flow, particularly in short turns - and looks b****** awful!
It's not so much of an issue in bumps and variables, as I'm skiing with a narrower stance so it can't happen so much, but it's evident in shorts and longs.
I think it's caused by my femoral hip angle. Having thought this through I think it's exactly the same thing that was causing me a repeated injury in my long distance running, which was sorted by Profeet in London and some really great footbeds and stable running shoes. I do have footbeds in my ski boots, but my stance and gait weren't analysed in the same way as when I got my footbeds for running.
In addition I don't think I have the same level of flexibility in ny right hip as I do in my left.
I can think about holding my thighs apart when skiing, but this is harder than it sounds - it involves using the muscular strength on the outside of my thigh to pull it outwards, resisting the natural build of my skeleton.
So, what can I do about it? Does anyone have any ideas for drills, on and off snow, strengthening and flexibility exercises?
I have to change this!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do you mean Q-Angle?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, I mean the angle at which the thigh joins the hip, there may be different terms for it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is also the angle of the femoral neck - more usually problems here are described as knock kneed and bow-legged
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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essentially the same thing I think, doesn't matter what it's called.
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beanie1,
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| Coxa vara is a deformity of the hip, whereby the angle between the ball and the shaft of the femur is reduced to less than 120 degrees. This results in the leg being shortened, and therefore a limp occurs. It is commonly caused by injury, such as a fracture. It can also occur when the bone tissue in the neck of the femur is softer than normal, meaning it bends under the weight of the body. This may either be congenital, also known as Mau-Nilsonne Syndrome, or the result of a bone disorder. The most common cause of coxa vara is either congenital or developmental. Other common causes include metabolic bone diseases (e.g. Paget's disease of bone), post Perthes deformity, osteomyelitis, and post traumatic (due to improper healing of a fracture between the greater and lesser trochanter). Shepherds Crook deformity is a severe form of coxa vara where the proximal femur is severely deformed with a reduction in the neck shaft angle beyond 90 degrees. It is most commonly a sequellae of osteogenesis imperfecta, Pagets disease, osteomyelitis, tumour and tumour-like conditions (e.g. fibrous dysplasia). |
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little tiger, i don't think it's that bad, but yes that's the angle I'm talking about.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not quite the same as Q-Angle... ball and shaft of femur is a different angle
For instance I have a Q-angle closer to the range found in males than females(or so the physios tell me) - they tell me this is partly due to my narrow hips and partly due to angle hips insert at... the apparent 'fold' I had was NOT due to Q-angle but instead due to instability in foot/ankle area, different length of femurs, and habitual offloading of a painful leg/knee/hip... rarely happens these days
IIRC my instructor was also testing ROM and strength on adduction an abduction when looking for the problem - sorry long long time ago in my skiing life time (more than half of it ago I'd think as I've only been skiing 12 years)
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| little tiger wrote: |
beanie1,
| Quote: |
| Coxa vara is a deformity of the hip, whereby the angle between the ball and the shaft of the femur is reduced to less than 120 degrees. This results in the leg being shortened, and therefore a limp occurs. It is commonly caused by injury, such as a fracture. It can also occur when the bone tissue in the neck of the femur is softer than normal, meaning it bends under the weight of the body. This may either be congenital, also known as Mau-Nilsonne Syndrome, or the result of a bone disorder. The most common cause of coxa vara is either congenital or developmental. Other common causes include metabolic bone diseases (e.g. Paget's disease of bone), post Perthes deformity, osteomyelitis, and post traumatic (due to improper healing of a fracture between the greater and lesser trochanter). Shepherds Crook deformity is a severe form of coxa vara where the proximal femur is severely deformed with a reduction in the neck shaft angle beyond 90 degrees. It is most commonly a sequellae of osteogenesis imperfecta, Pagets disease, osteomyelitis, tumour and tumour-like conditions (e.g. fibrous dysplasia). |
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ok i see you removed your link to a diagram of coxa vara...
sorry folks this was describing what beanie was saying was same as Q-Angle
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, next time in london go see andi mccann at Alpine McCannix
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, sorry I was just looking for a picture that showed the angle I was talking about then realised that is referred to coxa vara so changed it.
I meant femoral hip / neck angle is the same, Q angle I think is angle femur joins tibia is that right?
skimottaret, yes I'm planning too, in the meantime I'm looking for other ideas and suggestions.
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I don't think I have the same level of flexibility in ny right hip as I do in my left.
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I can definitely recommend martin jefferies in london for anything to do with muscle/joint imbalances and misalignments - see www.suppleworx.com. I would bet he could fix any flexibility issues you may have in just a few sessions. He has sorted out a long standing problem I have had with excessive tightness on one hip and an underlying misaligned pelivs, something which very few medics (physios, drs, fitness trainers etc) understand and treat.
This had the rather good result that for the 1st time in years I could really balance well on my skis - a much better & more effective approach than paying for custom footbeds and boot alignment.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, get a copy of "the athletic skier" and play around with shimming your bindings yourself...
two ways to get lateral movement in the set up is to shim internal or grind the boot soles. Andi tends to use shims internally but i have been hearing bad things about doing that on people with major bow or knock knees and anything over two degrees (which isnt a lot) should be done externally...
from what i remember of your skiing you did a frame noticibly and i just put it down to old school, getting set up would help. are you able to get to a fridge or dry slope? you could play with shimming your bindings at home with strips and get in front of a mirror to get your knees in the right place and then have a go..
do you have any video that you can put up to see the problem?
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, please don't use that word, i don't a frame!!  An a frame is when the inside ski is flat and the outside ski on edge - if you look at my picture from the knees down it looks ok. Because of the way I'm built i can work both skis equally and still "appear" to have an a frame. Someone who was pretty neutral i don't think would be able to do that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beanie1, it has been a few years put a vid up to show what your talking about, i cant picture it myself... from what i remember you have quite narrow hips so could be an alignment issue
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, don't have any vids but will have some pics.
OK this is a weird pic (I'm perched on the top of a mogul in powder) but I think it shows what I mean. The skis are pretty flat. If you hold a piece of paper over the lower half of my legs so you are only looking at the picture knee up, you'd think it's going to be a really narrow stance. Then swap the paper round and look at just knees down - looks a lot better.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=11977153&l=74cb39ac3a&id=582290530
I hate it, hate the way i look when i ski. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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beanie1, Why not aim for a narrower stance all the time, not just in bumps and variables ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rjs, ha ha, funny you should say that... I did suggest it to a trainer but they didn't like that idea.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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bit tricky to make any sense out of one snapshot but im with rjs, if you have a narrow frame use a narrow stance, perhaps what they didnt like was the constant change of stance as you attempted to do something your body isnt made to do, do you swivel your hips when your knees are so close together?
on one of our clinics we had a skier similar to you with narrow knees and she swung her hips about a bit, she managed to open up her stance and got a lot stronger, rob has the before and after video and i will try to get a hold of it from him but he is busy over the next week....
edit, what i see in your picture is classic knock knees, you are on both inside edges in that photo
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 1-05-10 12:17; edited 1 time in total
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[quote="gra"]
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- a much better & more effective approach than paying for custom footbeds and boot alignment. |
not sure i will agree with that statement, you seem to have swallowed his website but hey if it worked for you then fine
the angle of the femoral neck is not going to be changed much by adjusting anything under the foot in terms of shims, these will reduce any exessive dynamic pronation but this is mostly down to the position of the foot inside the boot, adjusting the relationship between the foot and ankle at the sub talar joint, next step is outside the boots, planning the soles to bring the knee in line and stack everything in the correct place
as the problem is hip rather than knee i would have it checked by a good physio, let me know when you are back and i will suggest a few really good ones for you gra obviously didn't find a good one so went down the route he did
when everything has been checked out make sure all the muslces are working in a balanced way, strengthening the abductors on the outside of the thigh will help to bring the hip around a bit and may just do enough to straighten everything out, loads of strengthening/stretchign for the gluteal muscles as well, gluteus medius and opiriformis in particular as these "control" muscles play a large part in what happens at the hip joint... i would do all this before either shimming the foot/planning the boot, obviously having a well made insert in the boot is a part of the whole process but if this is not well made then it it can act against everything else in the chain
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, yes similar but that skier's is more pronounced I think. I don't think I do anything weird with my hips, but i can sometimes have a bit of a pop, so it interrupts my flow, and getting a grip early in the turn.
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CEM, thanks, I may well take you up on that recommendation. Don't suppose you know any good physios in HK do you?!
I don't know for certain it's the hip, it's self diagnosis and adding up a few things different knowledgeable people have said to me over the years.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, as it happens...... if it is a tightness issue then have a look at http://www.stretchasia.com/ chris who runs it is the brother of a guy i used to work with, he knows his stuff and if there is is any imbalance they should be able to assist...could be a good starting point
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM,
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not sure i will agree with that statement, you seem to have swallowed his website but hey if it worked for you then fine
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what I meant was, if you've got a misalignment which has origins in the hips/pelvis then I found that solving the root cause gave the best results for me, and was more effective than treating at the footbed/boot alignment level. I was not meaning to comment on the benefits of footbeds and alignment for someone with neutral hips.
And yes, "it" worked for me whereas 8 physios (including the leading physio in Verbier, supposedly respected ones in London and a local previously head physio at a premiership football club) did not. I found the guy by chance thanks to a glowing reference on the Snoworks website of 2 of the most experienced British instructors, Phil Smith & Emma Carrick-Anderson. "It" in this case being a combination of highly effective PNF stretching, deep tissue massage, some targeted strengthening and all of this after establishing a neutral pelvis alignment, the missing part from the physios I had seen. I'm not doing a sales pitch for the guy but he is doing something unique in my experience.
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| CEM wrote: |
| strengthening the abductors on the outside of the thigh will help to bring the hip around a bit and may just do enough to straighten everything out, loads of strengthening/stretchign for the gluteal muscles as well, gluteus medius and opiriformis in particular as these "control" muscles play a large part in what happens at the hip joint... |
QFT.
beanie1 when you say "narrower stance" do you also mean to say 'less difference between short leg and long (stance) leg'?
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You know it makes sense.
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comprex, You mean rjs and skimottaret suggesting I try to ski with a narrower stance?
Yes, I could try skiing with my feet closer together, my hips are pretty narrow so it could be I'm just trying to force my body into a position that's not natural for it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, nothing of the sort. I would wish you to be able to use any width stance you like.
I mean that during the times when you ski with a "wider" stance you also have more of a difference in extension between the legs because of the shape of the turn you're making.
Maybe it isn't the width of the stance but the difference in extension that's the source of difficulty here?
EDIT: looking at the pic, it's possible I'm way off.
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