 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I only joined the forum today, at my friend recommendation, after disastrous skiing holiday with SkiBeat in Les Arc (9-16/April/2011).
I have 48 years of skiing experience,the last 25 years of 2-3 weeks of skiing a year in Europe and USA. I am a former skiing instructor and junior racer.
I always relied on Ski Club of Great Britain for snow reports to choose my resorts etc but in view of my experience last week, it can not be trusted any more.
I only booked 6 days before my trip and SCGB reported snow depths of 45 cms at the bottom and 145 cms at the top and 80-90% lifts open. I was in there area twice before (albeit in early February both times), so I was not too concerned with the reported snow conditions, hoping for some decent skiing high up and viable runs to resort level.
Well, I wonder how snow depth was measured, but even runs high above Les Arc 2000 (including Aquile Rouge and run to chairlift half way down to Villaroger) were rocky and with many bare patches lower down (145 cms at the top, remember !!!).
I my view just 3 runs in Paradeski area were in decent enough condition: red and black on Col (with some easy moguls) and red down from Roche de Mio to old, slow chairlift (even skiing fast you struggle to make 3 runs per hr).
There were probably another 6-8 runs in skiable condition till 13-14:00 hrs, but that was it.
It was the only disastrous skiing holiday I ever had (I always book at short notice i.e. 1 week or less in advance), so I guess I have not done too badly over the years.
My question is however whether both holiday companies and resort operators owe customers some duty of care and whether paying punters have some legal comeback after being conned into parting with the money?
I hope some experts on the forum can answer this...
We were given 10% discount on lift passes on arrival, which was a bad sign in itself, but in view of snow conditions even 50%-70% discount would not be sufficient.
What annoyed me most was SkiBeat pretence that nothing is amiss and selling people full Paradeski passes instead of advising to buy one day pass and then deciding what to do next.
The lift operator attitude was outrageous as well. Even after my girlfriend damaged her knee ligament, she could not claim her unused days back. It has to be claimed on insurance.
I think the big problem is looking at number of lifts open as a gauge to skiing conditions instead reporting honestly on condition of runs (please note
SCGB). Using this measure the Paradeski area was no more then 10-15% open.
Clearly very few people would have gone skiing to Les Arc and La Plagne if they had known this.
SkiBeat still has 9 chalets open this week and 3 chalets the week after this. I doubt there would be any skiable snow left by then.
The bigger questions is whether this year deception will work in the long term benefit of the industry? I doubt it.
I was never great fun of wet snow, so with my girlfriend not going skiing ever again in April, they lost 2 people already.
Many people were crying in the resort re what happened. Families spent thousands of pounds on ski holidays in adavnce bacause of half term and were left with nothing to show for it.
Lets hope that postings on this forum would stop people wasting their money on non existent skiing. I for once will make sure that SCGB looses as many members as possible in view of their dishonest reporting of snow conditions.
I always thought that being a member of SCGB would give you an inside track on snow conditions etc. However one SkiBeat guest told me that he received no warning whatsoever from SCGB re real snow conditions and was not best pleased with "benefits" of SCGB membership.
regards,
madskier
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pandora's back!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| paulio wrote: |
| Pandora's back! |
Probably for about 12 pages 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Caveat emptor in this case.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's always someone else's fault. 
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should've checked elsewhere and headed to west coast of America!!!
Do you seriously believe that it's anyones fault that snow conditions are currently crap?
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I'd have thought if you only booked the holiday six days before going you would not expect to get any money back for the main part of the holiday (flight, accommodation etc). It has not been a secret that there has been a shortage of snow in many french resorts this year. I assume you probably got a good last minute deal for the Ski Beat package. Maybe it says in their booking conditions whether there is any snow guarantee or not.
If ski beat sold you the lift pass and told you a high percentage of runs were open and this turned out not to be the case you could maybe ask them for a partial refund on the lift pass.
I think you are right that some of the published snow depths are a bit suspect. I think that looking up webcams and reading posts on snow heads are better ways of working out the snow conditions in most resorts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hardly worth answering is it?
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Sue God.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| shoogly wrote: |
should've checked elsewhere and headed to west coast of America!!!
Do you seriously believe that it's anyones fault that snow conditions are currently crap? |
West Coast or Canada was not viable for a week skiing IMHO. I considered Val Thorens, Val DI and Hintertux, but for various reasons like being in other candidate resorts many times previously and my girlfriend never being to LArc, I had choosen the latter.
Well, my post was not about blaming anyone for snow conditions, but about quality of information provided to make informed decision.
Why I understand that tour operator and resort have vested interest in selling holidays and ski passes by any means fair or faul, I would have thought that SCGB would be a more honest broker so to speak.
My other points are valid, I think. Since you can only really see the product (i.e. snow conditions) when you use it, you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking.
I would have skied regardless, but many other people would have returned ski passes if they could and spend the money on trips to Bourg St Maurice and visiting restaurants.
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| madskier wrote: |
| I have 48 years of skiing experience... |
No fool like an old fool. On the plus side, now you've found us you'll never make the same mistake again and think of all the new friends you now have.
I recommend the EoSB (End of Snow Bash) next week where conditions will be - sans doute - perfect pow
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You know it makes sense.
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| madskier wrote: |
| you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking. |
Please tell me you are not serious
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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madskier, as a paying member, you should post your complaint on the SCGB forum as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowymum wrote: |
I'd have thought if you only booked the holiday six days before going you would not expect to get any money back for the main part of the holiday (flight, accommodation etc). It has not been a secret that there has been a shortage of snow in many french resorts this year. I assume you probably got a good last minute deal for the Ski Beat package. Maybe it says in their booking conditions whether there is any snow guarantee or not.
If ski beat sold you the lift pass and told you a high percentage of runs were open and this turned out not to be the case you could maybe ask them for a partial refund on the lift pass.
I think you are right that some of the published snow depths are a bit suspect. I think that looking up webcams and reading posts on snow heads are better ways of working out the snow conditions in most resorts. |
Thanks for sensible reply (unlike some others).
The difference for UK based holidaymakers is that they paid full amount for their holidays well in advance and can not cancel without loosing all the money.
When I go on apartment based trips to Italy or St Anton I usually only pay 50 to 100 Euro deposit and settle full amount on departure. Therefore you can easily cancel with the loss of the deposit and maybe air fare if you do not drive to the resort.
That was the reason for my comment re lift passes being non-refundable. French will just cancel, so resort gets nothing and then tries to fleece UK based tourists, compounding their misery...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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madskier, well, if this was 1981 I'd understand but it's 2011 and there are many sources of info out there. So hard lines, definitely caveat emptor. That said, snow reporting is shockingly bad from certain quarters and SCGB is probably the worst offender given their apparent trusted status and them having people on the ground out there. I believe they have a person or a small team in charge of reports so there really is no excuse. "Best conditions can be found on the upper slopes" has become a standing joke round here. Other prob is the Chinese whisper co-efficient - top two sites for snow info are SCGB and Snow Forecast. People may check both after a Google search and think two sources good enough. Issue is that they give off the same inaccurate info.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The depths of retardedness in this world never cease to amaze me. Want 100 % guaranteed snow? Go to a fridge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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is that a word? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking. |
Please tell me you are not serious |
Well, I am quite serious.
When I returned my girlfriend skis after her accident, shop charged me for 4 days and not six (I did not mentioned reason for returning, just said my girlfried dos not like skiing in this conditions).
Why returning ski pass should be any different? You would obviously pay daily rate for the days you used facilities on the mauntain, but why should you be charged for something you did not use, especially in view of the conditions?
When you return the car to car hire company after few days, you do not pay for the week, just for the days you had a car ( I have done it)
Think about it as a customer and there is nothing strange in my comments at all.
I guess, I am saying you can not be serious in supporting ski lift operator approach...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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madskier, to answer your orginial question accurately, you will have signed a contract with Ski Beat - that dictates what you can/cannot get back. Best read that.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
is that a word? |
Not according to my spell checker lol, but it should be!
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madskier,
| Quote: |
| I was never great fun of wet snow, so with my girlfriend not going skiing ever again in April, they lost 2 people already. |
Is she a bit of a retard as well? Tell her conditions can be excellent in April and then dump her. She'll only ever hold you back.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="clarky999"]The depths of retardedness in this world never cease to amaze me. Want 100 % guaranteed snow? Go to a fridge.[/quote
I hope your other 2022 posts were of higher quality...
I said nothing about 100% snow guarantee in my post.
I just raised some issues and ask some questions around the way supposedly trusted institution like SCGB describes snow conditions in the resort...
Since you mentioned the fridge: it might well be that SCGB and resort operators keep buckets of snow for lower and higher slopes and that is how they get their snow depth measurements from....
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Summary of thread:
Ski resorts lie.
European ski resorts don't give a damn about customer service/satisfaction. No refunds is a lift company mantra.
Veteran skiers haven't always learnt to take rough with the smooth.
Advice:
If you want a refundable lift pass there's plenty of places in N America that will give you rainchecks ( not necessarily refunds) if conditions aren't to your liking.
Edit: This is too obviously a troll right? 48 years skiing, 25 as a "pro" and no concept of checking a weather forecast?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 18-04-11 17:59; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just to say that the SCGB rely onthe snow depth figures given to them by the tourist offices in resort. I guess the reps could query their accuracy, but as the resorts often sponsors the reps with accommodation, lift passes etc, that could be tricky. I reckon it's alwasy been pretty obvious that TO's "massage" their depth figures, so as not to deter would-be tourists.
However, the reps' written reports on general snow conditions, weather, best slopes etc, in rep-hosting resorts, should, by and large, be accurate, as they are written by the reps theselves after each day's ski-ing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="madskier"]
| clarky999 wrote: |
The depths of retardedness in this world never cease to amaze me. Want 100 % guaranteed snow? Go to a fridge.[/quote
I hope your other 2022 posts were of higher quality...
I said nothing about 100% snow guarantee in my post.
I just raised some issues and ask some questions around the way supposedly trusted institution like SCGB describes snow conditions in the resort...
Since you mentioned the fridge: it might well be that SCGB and resort operators keep buckets of snow for lower and higher slopes and that is how they get their snow depth measurements from.... |
SCGB don't actually measure snow depth. That data is supplied by the resort. What you should have done was phone the SCGB resort rep and had a chat.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking. |
Please tell me you are not serious |
Clearly. If you find the hangover is too much for you, likewise, perhaps?
OP has failed to realise that you get a week's skiing at a discounted (slightly) rate if you buy a full week in advance compared to buying a new daily pass each morning.
| madskier wrote: |
| When I go on apartment based trips to Italy or St Anton I usually only pay 50 to 100 Euro deposit and settle full amount on departure. Therefore you can easily cancel with the loss of the deposit and maybe air fare if you do not drive to the resort. |
Leaving yourself open to being sued for the balance if you cancel at the last minute. A deposit is (depending of course on the terms of the contract) exactly that. It's not (generally) a payment for an option to take up a holiday, it's an initial deposit with the balance falling due on the date in the contract - departure apparently in your case. Holiday operators don't want customers like you.
http://www.la-plagne.com/en/winter/other/webcams.html
I reckon the suggestion above to take God to court for providing insufficient snow is a jolly good idea.
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You know it makes sense.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| madskier, as a paying member, you should post your complaint on the SCGB forum as well. |
I am not a paying member, I was considering joining but after this year experience I probably won't (although you get discounts from some TO).
Assuming that SCGB member on SkiBeat holidays was right, being a member would not have given me any more information to make better decision...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I hope your other 2022 posts were of higher quality...
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Unlikely 
Seriously though, don't trust any snow reports from anyone with any sort of vested interest - pretty common knowledge. And I would be very surprised if indeed the SCGB do not search out the deepest snow drift to measure from. Webcams and reports from skiers actually there will give you much better info, check the 'snow for the euros' thread on TGR and the seasonaires snow reports on Natives, and there's quite a few web sites doing useful weather forecasts for skiers.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 18-04-11 18:03; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking. |
Please tell me you are not serious |
Many north american resorts operate a "snow quality" guarantee where if you aren;t happy you can return your lift pass for a refund / credit. It's usually within an hour, to be fair...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
When I go on apartment based trips to Italy or St Anton I usually only pay 50 to 100 Euro deposit and settle full amount on departure. Therefore you can easily cancel with the loss of the deposit and maybe air fare if you do not drive to the resort.
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Given that attitude any apartment owner which doesn't require full payment some time in advance is possibly rather foolish.
I am sorry you had rotten conditions - so did lots of people, and many have written about them here. But I think you are the only one suggesting that you should get your money back. I went on a sailing holiday in the Mediterranean once and had practically no wind for a week. It didn't occur to me to ask for my money back.
People who booked their holidays months in advance, or who are new to the game, have more reason to feel aggrieved than someone who only booked the week before and has such a wealth of experience.
I find it astonishing that anybody that keen on skiing isn't watching the snow conditions like a hawk, in the weeks before going on holiday. Most Snowheads think of little else for months.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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madskier, You can take out insurance with the lift pass, (its eur2.80 a day in grand massif, i thinks its the same else where in france, you will have been offered it when you purchased the lift pass). If you need to be dragged off the mountain you can claim for that and the lost days lift pass and lessons etc. If you didn't buy it ...you get nothing... so claim off your travel insurance if you can.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ffs
I've just come down the mountain after the last of 9 days skiing at L2A, had a great time, plenty of skiing to be had.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| davidof wrote: |
Because I'm logged in already I'll post something.
The start of April was pretty exceptional, we lost 50cm of snow cover in a week, so it could easily go from ok to rocky horror in 6 days. Even the lift companies were caught out by the situation. Most probably expected to get through to the middle of April despite the lack of snow. |
Exactly, it can all change very quickly.
madskier what evidence have you that the reports you read prior to booking were not accurate at the time of publication?
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This is a wind-up right?
| Quote: |
| I only joined the forum today, at my friend recommendation |
So they are obviously a member of snowHeads. What is their username?
| Quote: |
| Why returning ski pass should be any different? You would obviously pay daily rate for the days you used facilities on the mauntain, but why should you be charged for something you did not use, especially in view of the conditions? |
If conditions were so bad, then you buy a daily lift pass. And on days you don't go skiing you can go and do other more interesting things....
Other snowheads were out that same week and although conditions weren't ideal there was snow to ski on http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=66382&start=1320
I too cannot believe you didn't look at a webcam before you went or even just typed in "Les Arcs snow report" in google, especially when booking so late.
Are you really Ibex?
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| James the Last wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| madskier wrote: |
| you should be able return unused part of the ski pass if the conditions are not too your liking. |
Please tell me you are not serious |
Clearly. If you find the hangover is too much for you, likewise, perhaps?
OP has failed to realise that you get a week's skiing at a discounted (slightly) rate if you buy a full week in advance compared to buying a new daily pass each morning.
| madskier wrote: |
| When I go on apartment based trips to Italy or St Anton I usually only pay 50 to 100 Euro deposit and settle full amount on departure. Therefore you can easily cancel with the loss of the deposit and maybe air fare if you do not drive to the resort. |
Leaving yourself open to being sued for the balance if you cancel at the last minute. A deposit is (depending of course on the terms of the contract) exactly that. It's not (generally) a payment for an option to take up a holiday, it's an initial deposit with the balance falling due on the date in the contract - departure apparently in your case. Holiday operators don't want customers like you.
http://www.la-plagne.com/en/winter/other/webcams.html
I reckon the suggestion above to take God to court for providing insufficient snow is a jolly good idea. |
I think I made it clear that I never had bad ski holiday before so I did not have to cancel. I would have to check what the terms were.
I have no reason or knowledge to dispute your legal point about meaning of deposit. However in most hotels you are only liable for the first night rate if you cancel within 24 hrs of arrival. it might be different in apartments of course.
I am not sure whether anyone would win court case against customer who paid in good faith for "skiing" holiday and seller concelled his knowledge about snow conditions etc. So those who booked early are disadvantaged here, unfortunately.
Your comment: "Holiday operators don't want customers like you." is too judgemental. You know too little about me, sorry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
I have 48 years of skiing experience
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I don't believe you. If that were true, you would know very well that you're unlikely to get a refund on your pass as a result of injury and very likely indeed to get deservedly laughed at if you ask for a refund because conditions were 'not to your liking'. You would also have known to look at the webcams and read independent reports (like this one http://www.lesarcsnet.com/snow_report.php) before making a decision regarding a late season ski trip in a poor snow year. And if you'd done all that, you'd have booked 2Alpes instead.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| If that were true, you would know very well that you're unlikely to get a refund on your pass as a result of injury |
Depends on resort. We did straight away in Serfaus, Austria, on production of the medical centre's letter.
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FAQ
