 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Guys
I was talking to a friend of mine who started skiing last week and on their second lesson were onto parallel turns (which seemed very rapid to me but then they are both good sportsmen?!)
However the biggest thing was that the instructor told them that pole planting was an outdated technique and that they should nt do it!! Having returned from St Anton myself where ive been a'planting down the powder and mogul runs that I'm so fond of I found this very surprising but then when I watched some of the 2010 olympics slalom on youtube I noticed that they did nt do it either, although the moguls guys did (phew). Obviously the GS or faster guys dont pole plant...
So who is right or is there no easy answer to this now?
DaveK
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 22-03-10 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ddraver, welcome to snowHeads 
Your friend needs to find a new instructor, preferably one who knows what they are talking about.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Still a very important and relevant technique. But if you're skiing fast and making large radius turns you certainly don't need a strong pole plant. On the other hand if tackling a steep mogul run, pole planting is essential.
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| ddraver wrote: |
However the biggest thing was that the instructor told them that pole planting was an outdated technique and that they should nt do it!! ...........
So who is right or is there no easy answer to this now?
DaveK |
Yes, there is a very easy answer. The instructor was talking bollox. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Could it be that clumsy attempts at pole plants by these outright novices were getting in the way of their development, and what the instructor really meant is that they were not part of modern technique at that level? I suspect the real message was lost in translation.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| I suspect the real message was lost in translation. |
Probably, although saying that it's an "outdated technique" seems unambiguous.
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Au contraire. The instructor was quite correct, perhaps he didn't explain it properly to your friends, or in turn they have missed part of the explanation to you.
It sounds like your friends have a 'euro-carver' styleee instructor who hasn't given them the full picture. Pole plants are still relevant, but really only for skiing steeps and moguls. The rest of the time we should be carving our skis like the alpine racers you reference, where the most you should aim for is a pole flick, not a pole plant.
Then again, what do I know.
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| parlor wrote: |
...you should aim for is a pole flick, not a pole plant.
Then again, what do I know. |
I'm sure that difference was explained very clearly to the beginners when they were having their detailed discussions on pole plant technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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good good - I ve not got to relearn 20 odd years of skiing then!
I was expecting that they'd been taught carving rather than the old school paralell turns/ski techniques that I had to put up with...
It made me think becasue I ve been thinking about how people are taught these days. I had to go through the rigmarole of ESF 1, 2, 3 star and competition which I'm sure has made me the skiier I am (it is the one thing that I ll say I'm reasonably decent at!), but there are things I ve never used since. Also i was "teaching" some friends last year who had been "taught" by their dad to turn by weighting the uphill ski and with no pole planting - listening to them telling me they did nt know how to side slip made me glad of all the lessons I had!
(I promise I ll reread the posts next time!)
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Still a very important and relevant technique. But if you're skiing fast and making large radius turns you certainly don't need a strong pole plant. |
I think this, in combination with what laundryman says is the key.
The instructor is not looking for big, deep, obvious old-fashioned heave-your-weight-around pole-plants which leave holes in the snow.
Without making pole plants perhaps the instructor at this stage is looking for natural balance... pole plants will come about when looking for more precision and indication. So your friends first forays in to pole-planting should be pole-dabbing rather than seed-sewing. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My pole technique needs some work. Does anyone know any good articles or videos I could take a look at?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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tiffin, practice makes perfect.
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tiffin, there are a few different drills that you can work on to improve timing, such as double tap, but the main thing is to pole plant on every turn you make regardless of whether it is necessary so it becomes an instinctive move rather than something you need to concentrate on. Once that is in place it's much easier to refine and vary your technique.
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You know it makes sense.
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laundryman, Yeah but I'm not sure what I should be practising
As a rough guide do you place a plant during the transition from one turn to the next and you place it near the front end of the inside ski and about 12 inches from the body?
And that helps timing as well as stopping the upper body rotate into the turn?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've been on two week long courses this year, both with highly respected organisations with good followings on here.
One provider stressed the importance of pole planting, the other nearly dismissed it. Go figure.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| tiffin wrote: |
| As a rough guide do you place a plant during the transition from one turn to the next and you place it near the front end of the inside ski and about 12 inches from the body? |
Yes, as I rough guide. I usually start the action of the pole plant as I am nearing the end of the turn and try to time to plant/tap/flick of the wrist so it occurs at the same time as the transition. The location of where you plant will vary, depending on the terrain you're on, how quickly you're skiing and what kind of turns you are making.
| Quote: |
| And that helps timing as well as stopping the upper body rotate into the turn? |
Yes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My favourite pole-plant "error" displayed by a "self-taught" man was the simply sublime plant uphill of the uphill ski. To this day I don't even know how that's possible. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Alexandra wrote: |
| My favourite pole-plant "error" displayed by a "self-taught" man was the simply sublime plant uphill of the uphill ski. To this day I don't even know how that's possible. |
I see that fairly often with beginners and sometimes with very experienced skiers if you ask them to do something different with their pole plant.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just completed my second weeks skiing. Last year no mention of pole-planting in my week of lessons with Evo2 - I thought the lessons were good and got me starting to parallel by the end of the week. This year in ESF group 1, working on parallel technique all week and only a small bit of work on pole planting near the end of the week. Discussed as a technique for steeper / difficult slopes only. Did find it tricky and un-natural at first as haven't used my poles that way before, but I'm sure with practice I'll get it next year
Clearly as a newbie I can't comment on what's right or wrong, but you have so much to think about when learning that introducing too much early on can be confusing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Skiing is an art or craft, with scientific and fashion elements. It is probably unreasonable to expect uniformity in how it is taught, but it can be confusing.
The "new" skis certainly reduce the need for the pole plant as an emphatic punctuation mark in turns (other than bumps/steeps/short-turns in powder).
But I would say that at least 80% of the piste skiers I see not using their poles are not using them because they are bad lazy skiers who are jerking their way through turns with poor technique, rather than being style-gods who can carve by proper posture/angulation etc etc.
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PSIA
The philosophy presented by Bob Barnes at Keystone, Colorado when I was instructing there in 2006 was:
unweighting and flattening of both skis when it came time to transition to the next turn
turn initiation with both feet
once both feet had crossed the fall line a light tap with the new inside pole
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| parlor wrote: |
| Au contraire. The instructor was quite correct, perhaps he didn't explain it properly to your friends, or in turn they have missed part of the explanation to you. |
I was SO hoping that you were going to say:
"There is no requirement for the pole plant in 2010. The only approach to getting down the hill is to straightline it."
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
once both feet had crossed the fall line a light tap with the new inside pole |
Not quite sure I understand that. Feet crossing the fall line - isn't that half way through the turn?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, I think Mike means literally crossed, as in crossing a road.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
once both feet had crossed the fall line a light tap with the new inside pole |
Not quite sure I understand that. Feet crossing the fall line - isn't that half way through the turn? |
Close to.
He advocated steering / pivoting of both skis (or pure carving when terrain and snow conditions allow) to fall line, and as both tips cross the imaginary straight line of the fall line then a tap of the new inside pole.
A much later tap from what is traditionally taught.
The basic theory being that initiating the turn with a pole plant is a blocking action rather than a 'go' movement.
Hope that makes it clearer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The lessons I've had this year have almost exclusively focussed on doing good stuff with the hands, and reducing my terrible door-opening habits. As these included a guided session with an Olympic mogul gold medallist I can confirm pole plants are still very much relevant in certain circumstances.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Mike Pow, thanks, much clearer. I'd like to see a video of that because it sounds unusual, to say the least, but Bob Barnes knows what he's talking about so I'm curious as to how it works.
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Mike Pow, that sounds to me like a technique that would make the pole plant early rather than late - ie putting it at the end of the turn rather than the start of the turn, means it ends up where it's meant to be (the very start of the new turn)? Because once the skis have crossed the fall line, the new inside pole is of course the inside pole of the NEXT turn.
That's how I interpret what you said anyway, maybe I'm getting it mixed up!
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You know it makes sense.
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In time honoured instructor fashion, I'm not explaining it well enough.
Theoretically, turning using this method / philosophy can be achieved without a pole touch. And most of the time that's exactly what I do and what I teach.
The pole touch is definitely later in the movement, after the turn and direction of travel has been initiated, and is used primarily to keep both hands forward and travelling in the same direction and speed as the skis.
It's used as a way of keeping balanced over both skis throughout the turn, creating a fluid movement on snow. A continuous, smooth progression down the hill always striving for whole body balance - dynamic balance.
Josh Foster, Director of Skiing at Big White, explains this well:
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| "Think of balance as an action, not a position, and that action comes from the lower body. If you're not seeking out balance then you’re going to have real troubles adjusting to changes in terrain, snow conditions, turn shape and speed." |
The biggest difference as I see it is the traditional method / philosophy advocates a pole touch/plant with the downhill hand prior to turning.
This method / philosophy advocates a pole touch with the uphill hand after turn intitiation to aid the skier in balancing over both skis in all planes throughout the turning movement.
Hope that explains it better for you beanie1 and adds to my previous explanation rob@rar
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
This method / philosophy advocates a pole touch with the uphill hand after turn intitiation to aid the skier in balancing over both skis in all planes throughout the turning movement.
Hope that explains it better for you beanie1 and adds to my previous explanation rob@rar |
OK, understanding better now. You often see racers throwing in a double pole plant (uphill and downhill hands) as a recovery move to get back in to regain balance. Never thought of teaching this for recreational skiers. Would still like to see some video though, because it seems less helpful than a traditional downhill/inside hand pole plant.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| parlor wrote: |
Au contraire. The instructor was quite correct, perhaps he didn't explain it properly to your friends, or in turn they have missed part of the explanation to you.
It sounds like your friends have a 'euro-carver' styleee instructor who hasn't given them the full picture. Pole plants are still relevant, but really only for skiing steeps and moguls. The rest of the time we should be carving our skis like the alpine racers you reference, where the most you should aim for is a pole flick, not a pole plant.
Then again, what do I know. |
I also employ the "pole flick", force of habit, doesn't really do anything except make me feel more comfortable and in control (guess it keeps my hands forward and therefore my body) I do look around however and see that I am the only one doing it. Probably people who learned to ski pre-carvers use poles when not needed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A good pole plant is an invaluable skill on steep and variable terrain, I haven't ever heard of a good ski instructor saying otherwise. Before projecting your weight down a steep I'd rather have a pole stuck out there to help than not! What has changed is a blocking pole plant is not often used ie. a pole plant being used to help you turn. I asked a race coach for some advice before getting into the gates for the first time, the first thing he said was get forward and the second was pole plant.
In the world cup you will see pole plants in GS and even at times in the speed events. People often don't watch the racers carefully as evidenced by the thread a while ago with people saying racers perfectly carved all their SL turns.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mike Pow, would you take that technique into steeps and moguls?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
This method / philosophy advocates a pole touch with the uphill hand after turn intitiation to aid the skier in balancing over both skis in all planes throughout the turning movement.
Hope that explains it better for you beanie1 and adds to my previous explanation rob@rar |
OK, understanding better now. You often see racers throwing in a double pole plant (uphill and downhill hands) as a recovery move to get back in to regain balance. Never thought of teaching this for recreational skiers. Would still like to see some video though, because it seems less helpful than a traditional downhill/inside hand pole plant. |
Whooooah, certainly not advocating a double pole plant, and certainly don't teach it
No video footage sorry.
| Quote: |
| it seems less helpful than a traditional downhill/inside hand pole plant |
what it achieves is:
turn initiation from the feet not from and around the downhill hand
balance and efficiency
most people plant not touch, and that downhill becoming inside uphill hand becomes stationary and gets caught inside and behind the speed of the skis putting the skier out of balance requiring an additional movement through the turn phase to get back in balance
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mike Pow,
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that downhill becoming inside uphill hand becomes stationary and gets caught inside and behind the speed of the skis
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I'm certainly conscious of that sometimes.
I'm just wondering whether - moguls and steeps aside - your technique, given the rationale behind it, is best achieved without poles at all. Won't a natural, 'balletic' use of the arms alone achieve the desired result?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| narc wrote: |
| A good pole plant is an invaluable skill on steep and variable terrain, I haven't ever heard of a good ski instructor saying otherwise |
Agreed, just a difference of opinion on when the touch takes place.
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| Before projecting your weight down a steep I'd rather have a pole stuck out there to help than not! |
A lot of skiers carry their hands and by extension their poles in the fore/aft plane. This leads very quickly to lazy, low hands and the 'gunslinger' look. The technique I advocate has the skier carrying the hands and poles in the lateral plane, using the poles as outriggers balancing the upper body to the lower body and to the pitch of the slope.
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| What has changed is a blocking pole plant is not often used ie. a pole plant being used to help you turn. I asked a race coach for some advice before getting into the gates for the first time, the first thing he said was get forward and the second was pole plant. |
This technique eliminates the blocking action.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Mike Pow, would you take that technique into steeps and moguls? |
Yes.
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Does that not result in the weight being back / uphill?
This is a tehcnique I've never seen before, and I think would probably be better demonstrated!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
Mike Pow,
| Quote: |
that downhill becoming inside uphill hand becomes stationary and gets caught inside and behind the speed of the skis
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I'm certainly conscious of that sometimes.
I'm just wondering whether - moguls and steeps aside - your technique, given the rationale behind it, is best achieved without poles at all. Won't a natural, 'balletic' use of the arms alone achieve the desired result? |
Yes.
I advocate light pole dragging with the hands travelling forward of and at the same speed as the feet.
This is easy to achieve traversing across the slope, but what happens when you want to turn?
I explain it as walking down a curved staircase with both hands running along the bannister either side of the staircase.
In the fall line, the feet/skis are facing straight downhill weighted 50/50 over each ski.
As the turn is initiated and the feet 'go round the corner, more balance and weight is gradually and progressively placed on the downhill foot which is leading the turn. The ratio is dependent on the pitch of the slope.
At the same time the downhill hand 'which is running along the bannister' is travelling at the same speed as the feet and is lower than the uphill hand. It is balancing to the pitch of the slope and creating progressive angulation.
These are continuous and subtle movements, rather than the jerky 'positions' of yesteryear.
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Mike Pow, mmm. Very nicely described. 
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