Snow ploughing should be banned

A snowHead

I'm now convinced of this, having seen two friends in as many trips damage their knees whilst falling in the snow plough position. They were both beginners in their first week, learning the snow plough and managed to pick up speed on a slightly steeper blue. Their natural reaction, like most beginners, was to fall backwards, whilst in the snow plough position.

3 year old kids can sit happily on the floor with their knees together and their legs bent and pointing in opposite directions. Adults generally cannot. So adults who fall in that position generally put a lot of lateral and twisting strain on their knees, leading to medial colateral, meniscii and cruciate damage.

If beginners are taught the feet parallel 'hockey stop' primarily, surely this type of fall and subsequent injury wouldn't happen so much. There must be a better way than the snow plough for beginners. Any thoughts welcomed.

A snowHead

The snowplough ia a perfectly sensible foundation for developing good ski technique, whereas 'hockey stop' type turns just stores up trouble for the future. If they were picking up too much speed on a blue piste to be able to control with a snowplough it was the choice of terrain that was wrong not the type of turn they were making.

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rob@rar you might be right about the choice of slope, but for a beginner, it only takes one slight moment of panic on a fairly flat slope to mess up the shift in weight and pick up speed. From then on, the only thing that crosses their mind seems to be to snow plough and then sit down backwards.

Most of us here probably don't remember that far back in our skiing when that was us. But seeing some of my friends do that last week brought it home to me that surely there must be a better way?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

cathy, you probably bend in ways that most adults can only dream of doing! wink

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cathy, Me as well. Think rob@rar has it right about choice of terrain and I certainly heard more than one instructor on holiday if they really had to fall over on purpose go onto their uphill side as sitting down backwards was a bad idea.

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bum, One can damage the knees just fine in falls from parallel skiing. Just ask a lot of snowheads who had it happen Sad

Direct to parallel teaching is only suitable for "Very fit, strong individuals" in my literature. Does that description fit the average beginners class? Not really Wink

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bum, I found it very useful even off piste on narrow tracks back home etc, an essential skill IMHO.....

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bum, they were skiing beyond their ability - caveat emptor.

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My injured friends (this year and last year) had lessons in the morning, and then tried a blue slope with others afterwards. I guess that is when most accidents happen.

I've seen someone doing controlled slow snowplough turns on a black piste. They must have had knees of steel!!!

You know it makes sense.

bum, teaching a beginner a hockey stop teaches him/her one thing only - a hockey stop. It does not lead to anything else. There is no learning progression to turning on the base of a hockey stop, It's a dead-end (though obviously a rather useful thing to have in one's repertoire). Your friends presumably had not learned how to control speed by turning sufficiently for the slope they were on. I generally find it is far more common for a beginner to pick up too much speed because he/she has not yet got the control of foot rotation to maintain a plough, with the result that the skis start to match and speed inevitably increases. Fortunately the resulting fall tends to be a sideways toppling off nearly parallel skis which is potentially less damaging than what you talk about. And I wouldn't take a beginner on to a blue run till that problem was solved.

I reckon too that your friends have to consider the setting of their bindings. Why did they not release before the damage was done?

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kitenski actually I agree a snowplough is sometimes useful on narrow flat pistes.

But I think it's a useful skill for a good skier to have, but if it's the only skill that a beginner has, that's where I feel there will be trouble.

A snowHead

bum, sorry mate - that's just wrong.

Any kind of low-medium speed twisting fall can damage knees.

The snowplough allows beginners to initiate significant braking action without having to unweight an edge - a skill which it can take some time to acquire. But people do need to learn to be able to direct the plough into a corner to stop. Otherwise - what rob@rar says.

It is also quite a useful off-piste technique btw.

Basically your mates went driving in a car where they understood the accelerator, not the brake. Their fault.

A snowHead

ccl, I thought normal bindings didn't pop if you're doing a classic backward-twisting fall at slow speed? Hence the "knee-binding" that got designed.

On the general topic of snowploughing, I still use it in my skiing, although very rarely. It can be useful in a whole bunch of situations. I'm not sure whether beginners should learn with it or not... but it worked for me.

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bum, If a snowplough is the only skill a beginner has, then that beginner has made a good start to learning to ski - but should stick to an easy slope until able to control speed by turning. And guess what? That's exactly what the instructor is going to do next - develop the newfound ability to rotate both feet inwards to form and hold a plough shape into rotating the feet in the same direction to make the skis turn...........

.........but i don't see any point in re-stating the generally accepted approach to ski teaching in order to persuade you. I rather think it is down to you to explain what your alternative would be, based presumably on the hockey stop as the first skill learned.

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ccl, I'm not actually that against snow ploughing as my 'tabloid' title suggests, merely throwing it open to discussion.

Personally I feel a hockey stop, even if messed up, leads to a less severe injury than a messed up snow plough stop. It also allows them to get out of trouble (excessive speed) with more confidence. Whether you can progress from a hockey stop to normal parallel skiing easier than from a snow plough is debatable.

I know my case study of two friends isn't exactly hard evidence, but that's just my gut feeling.

PS. Was in Switzerland, there were no greens. Blues are the easiest.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think stoatsbrother has summed it up rather well. sorry mate - that's just wrong and there is probably enough already in answer to your original question to explain in some more detail why you are "just wrong". But just to add one further technical point: the essential value of the snowplough is that it provides the beginner with a stable base on the inner edges of the skis. A hockey stop is executed with parallel skis on opposing edges which is much less stable and which begs the question of how the beginner gets on to these edges in the first place.

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bum, that's easy for us as more experienced skiiers to say - but I still think they'd throw themselves at the floor when faced with the sight of something too steep for them. As ccl, how the heck are you going to get beginners on edges when they already think they "know it all" enough to be able to take themselves out of their comfort/safety-zones?

A slow fall can injure anyonee - what about the French (I think!) girl who toppled as she came out of the gates in Whistler this year? Think she doesn't know what a hockey stop is? Bust her ACL I believe.

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As rob says, there's a tendency in self-taught hockey stops for a lot of upper body rotation to occur - and he's right that it's hard to cure after that. If hockey stops are to be taught from the first day or two of skiing, they should be combined with exercises that control the rotation to a minimum.

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Snowploughing rules - direct to parallel is fundamentally flawed IMV.

bum, there isn't negativity - but they need to be able to use the snowplough as well, for the long green road-type runs that beginners spend so much time on. Your thread title didn't say learn both, it said stop learning to snowplough.

As George W. Bash correctly says, there was a trend towards skipping the snowplough in tuition a few years ago, and I have had guides complain to me that some skiers now need to be taught it later on a part of a rounded skiing education. I suspect people do need to be taught the hockey stop a lot sooner, but you do - as George W. Bash and I said, need to be able to briefly but decisively unweight one ski which can feel counter-intuitive when yuo are accelerating. A snow-plough, on normal length skis, is easier.

You know it makes sense.

Hockey stops seem to work better with a bit more speed to start with. From the lofty perspective of 3 weeks' skiing, I use snowplough in slow speed stops, and hockey stops in high speed stops. Snowplough stop is a lot more gradual and requires more time to take effect - good for a gradual deceleration when arriving at a lift - particularly if you've more or less stopped. Also seems better in heavy snow/slush than a parallel based stop. A hockey stop from low speed seems to need to be forced for it to happen, while a hockey stop from high speed is just a natural development of a parallel turn. The hockey stop is also entertaining, especially in warmer weather, as you can spray your friends with snow and (as my OH managed last week) get a load of snow down my cleavage.

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Direct-to-parallel requires a disciplined approach. In a way I'm surprised that it didn't take over, because (as mentioned) it was a valid approach in the 1970s. Skis have improved so much since then that it would now be more effective and efficient. It does reduce stress on the knees quite significantly. The plough puts them at an unnatural inward-leaning angle, with the feet and lower legs twisting the heels out - also unnatural.

Feet and legs are most comfortable when in parallel.

Ultimately the plough is an essential technique in skiing, and plough turns can be a very good way of slowing advanced skiers right down to work on the carve, but I think a bit of renewed experimentation with direct-to-parallel would be a good thing.

A snowHead

stoatsbrother, maybe negativity is the wrong word, but I certainly wasn't taught the hockey stop in all my lessons, nor do I see it being taught to the children on the school trips I frequently go on.

I've always maintianed that learning how to stop is the most fundamental skill in skiing, and for me the hockey stop seems most natural and safe, and preferable to the snow plough stop. That's all I'm suggesting and discussing - I know my title is a bit tabloid trashy.

A snowHead

bum, what rob@rar, and stoatsbrother, said. The snowplough is useful in many situations for all levels of skier eg how else do you control speed on a narrow path, a sloping entry to a lift gate etc? To suggest it should be banned is daft!

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bum, So because x million skiiers didn't hurt themselves this year and your 2 daft friends did it should be banned? rolling eyes

Should we also ban cars because a couple of idiots crash them?

Your friends WERE taught how to stop despite your protestations, they chose not to execute the stop correctly on terrain beyond their ability.

I am a very competent skiier and still use a snow plough from time to time, in situations such as bobinch suggests - on saying that though, I'd absolutely bl**dy love to see your two friends hockey stop their way in to a lift line! Twisted Evil

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bum, my kids have both been taught (in ski school) to do a hockey stop. Whether the 8 year old always remembers is another matter... Toofy Grin

Randomsabreur, we don't believe you... pictures please... wink

George W. Bash, It always sounded a very logical way to progress... provided perhaps you did all your skiing in ski school until you had learnt to stop. In France do you think it was mainly a way of emerging independent ski schools differentiating themselves from the ESF and having a new "product" ?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

stoatsbrother, I think we're focusing too much on the hockey stop - ski turns need to be taught in series as continuous flowing movements - which is what Ski Evolutif and GLM were about. Certainly, in terms of Les Arcs, it was a big deal in terms of promoting the resort. But it got people skiing down green/blue runs from an early stage, and they could worry about learning the plough etc later. In the end, I'm sure you'd have equivalent standard skiers either way, provided the right disciplines are built in.

I'm just surprised there's so little experimentation going on these days

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There is a world of difference between:

1. performing a snow plough turn and snow plow stop with both inside edges engaged aggressively and,
2. performing a snow plough turn on flatter skis with active steering of both feet across and back up the fall line

If the latter method is performed it is:

comfortable
the skier is in charge of their speed - more speed, then deviate less from the fall line. less speed, finish the turns off
encourages a quicker transition to parallel skiing
is safer on the knee

This PSIA ideology works, and is the first thing that I teach to all students, regardless of ability, to get them centred on the ski and to get both feet turning.

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stoatsbrother, whatever people say about the usefulness of the snowplough - and yes, of course it is very useful, for all the reasons mentioned - eliminating A-frame from parallel turns is a bit of a holy grail even now, isn't it? I guess, and it's only a guess, that ski evolutif was invented so that residual A-frame didn't get too ingrained in muscle memory and need to be actively un-learned and eliminated from parallel skiing. In other words, in answer to your post, not just a publicity/marketing stunt. But I'm sure that George W. Bash knows much more about the history of ski evolutif than I do.

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Hurtle, a proper snowplough shouldn't promote an A frame. The knee should not be dropped to the inside of the turn to any significant amount, so the leg should be fairly straight (albeit with feet width greater than hip width). Some beginners do drop their knees inside, which causes excessive ski edging making itr difficult to steer at slow speeds (as well as being a fundamentally unstable position for knee health).

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Alexandra, you're taking the title too literally.

Of course I'm not suggesting snow ploughing be BANNED outright. I snowplough at times too. Just suggesting that there may be an alternative to the emphasis on snow ploughing for beginners, like George W Bash has described.

It's not just my two friends who were injured this year. Thousands of people have and will continue to suffer knee injuries from falling in a snow plough position. Thousands more will also give up skiing after their first week because the snow plough hurts their knees too much.

I'm not saying I have answers, but that's why we're here to discuss whether there are alternatives or not.

And it's unfair to call everyone who has a skiing accident 'daft'. Sometimes they are just unlucky.

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Snow ploughing should be banned

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