 Poster: A snowHead
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We are off to Avoriaz for our first visit in 2 weeks time and have heard about The Wall. It is supposed to be a black and very steep piste. Can anybody give some more info on it before we tip our skis over the edge, please. Is it completely full of huge moguls? Icy? extremely steep? all of the above? Do they ever prepare it with piste machines?
Is there more than one "wall" in PDS? there seems to be mention of both a "swiss wall" and a "wall of death". The same?
We are good advanced skiers and usually ski all the black slopes in 3 Vallees, but it would be good to know what to expect here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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michaelk,
My own limited experience is that it is a steepish black run usually with fair sized moguls.
Main problem is that it is south facing so conditions can be very varied and timing is crucial I would have though late season ( I have only skied it early season).
Can be a bit stony at the top, if it is icy I would wait till it has had a bit of sun on it personally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Swiss Wall. Chavanette. Call it what you want.
A bit steep (and normally heavily mogulled) at the entrance, so more intimidating than would would suggest for the whole run. In icy conditions you may consider it "do not fall" terrain as you can easily go a looooooooong way before you stop. Never heard it being groomed.
If you don't like the look of it, you can always download on the chair. In recent years, piste maps have shown it as an itinerary, rather than a straight black as previously.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Did it last year for the first time.
You need to take an extra deep breath and choose your spot to drop in but after that its a fairly standard mogul field but rather longer and wider. if the bumps start to tire you out then make for the edges where it seems to be a bit easier. Its a run that needs to be ticked off so get on and do it. if any of your party doesnt fancy it then they can wait at the restaurant till you come back up on the chair lift
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It's like the famous Gunbarrel run in Heavenly, California, USA. Just The Wall is shorter and people who shouldn't be there ski it. It's about 35 degrees at its steepest part(s).
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Just a bit scary
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did the it with my son over the new year week and didn't find it particularly difficult but we had very good snow conditions. It's a steep entry and probably only really scarey in very icy conditions. Once past the very top it's a fairly standard mogul field.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skiking4, not willy waving here, but there's no way that photo is 2,000 feet of vertical. It's certainly 2,000 feet long.
The Swiss Wall is around 1.5km from the entry to the end of the bumps. Around 5,000 feet long.
michaelk - how difficult the run is depends on the conditions. If the conditions are good then by far the biggest risk is other people falling into you. Though, saying that, I've seen someone fall from near the top to near the bottom in reasonably good conditions. Not nice.
I've fallen near the top. It was very, very unpleasant for the 30m that it took me to stop.
Plenty of tales over here.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The scariest part of the Wall is the total shitshow almost guaranteed to be going on, down the entire run. Felt like a total liability every time I looked down it, so I didn't ski it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
skiking4, not willy waving here, but there's no way that photo is 2,000 feet of vertical. It's certainly 2,000 feet long.
The Swiss Wall is around 1.5km from the entry to the end of the bumps. Around 5,000 feet long.
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Um, Gunbarrel is 1850 vertical to be "exact", and The Wall is 331m, or about 1000 vertical, says this site.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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skiking4,
| Quote: |
It's like the famous Gunbarrel run in Heavenly, California, USA. Just The Wall is shorter and people who shouldn't be there ski it. It's about 35 degrees at its steepest part(s).
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The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Chavanette link by moffatross suggests the steepest is 55 degree. That is a huge difference from 35 degrees which is a gradient that can be groomed. This based on the steepest groomed black Harakiri in Mayrhofen being 38 degree from the sign-post of 78%. The snowbasher there needs to be winched in the grooming. Thus 35 degrees slope would appear to be a serious underestimate and downgrade the Swiss wall no steeper than a groomed piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last time I did that run was in the mid 80s, aged around 14 or 15. I remember some big icy moguls and not much fun. We did it just to say we did it. Not really my thing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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snowball, I wondered that. These steepness figures are so confusing. I've never seen The Wall, but it looks from the picture as though only the very top is indeed extremely steep - is 29 degrees generally considered to be extremely steep? - and that, if you fall at the top, you're liable to keep on going a long way (especially if it's icy) simply because it doesn't level out for ages and not because the rest of it is particularly steep.
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michaelk, "all of the above". stay left at the top, the danger is that you fall on the right hand side at the top of the run and then bounce down about 200 yds and over the edge of a cliff. if you fall on the left hand side of the run you'll just bounce down all the way to the bottom. Propably a good day to wear the helmet if you have one. If you don't actively enjoy moguls I wouldn't bother
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snowball,
It is not really my intention to challenge you or skiking4 but I think for the benefit of the others we should be accurate with the gradient.
The correct picture to show the gradient should be this which in the same Wiki page but ties in with some SH comments that it was not possible to see the bottom from standing near the edge. That to me is not 29 or 35 degrees.
I haven't skied it myself but it should be given the due respect for those who are about to attempt it with the correct information.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 9-03-09 13:00; edited 1 time in total
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For ordinary skiers anything around 30º is a very steep black. Only a small number of extreme skiers can ski a 55º slope and you certainly couldn't have moguls on it. On a 29º slope the front face of a big mogul could be 45º or more.
Even on a steeper blue slope it can be difficult to stop if it is very icy. It is a good idea, if you start skiing really steep slopes, to learn self-arrest techniques.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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doesn't look that steep? think it's difficult to gauge steepness from a picture though.
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saikee, looks about 30º on your picture (the main area looks less). But it may not show how steep it really is - often photos don't because the camera is tipped up. If there is a slight roll-over you would get that effect of not seeing the slope when you are just back from the top.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The wall is mostly skied by those with much more bravado than ability - like me 20 years ago - and as such there is a real risk of being 'skittled' from behind by a fellow snow-sports enthusiast who has temporarily parted company with their equipment.
there is a charilft that comes right up over the run adding to the sense of performance anxiety - I recommend a couple of rides up that before you (take the) plunge. 
As saikee's picure shows only those with canary yellow all-in-one ski rompers are able to remain upright when conditions dictate that large parts of the run have bits of the mountain poking through
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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red 27, top post! On balance - I don't think I'll bother.
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I have seen couple of signs in Austria, in Kitzbuhel and Mayrhofen, stating the gradients of the piste. The Hahakiri in Mayrhofen claims to be the steepest "groomed" piste in Austria and the snowbasher needs to be on winch to groom it. The information is available in Youtube. It is sign-posted to have 78% or 38 degrees. Thus an ungroomed run, like the Swiss Wall, could be steeper than 38 degree. One of reasons a run isn't groomed is because it is not safe to do so.
One can see from the above picture and visualise if it is safe to drive a snowbasher over it. Bearing in mind a snowbasher relies on the metal flats to key into the snow which could become loose if the gradient becomes excessive. The dead weight of a snowbasher can eventually overcome the particle friction between the snow.
From the published photo I myself don't think a snowbasher can travel over the Swiss Wall safely at the top section and so I believe its gradient steeper than 38 degree or 78%.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 9-03-09 13:20; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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The Swiss wall was, until recently a piste.
Many years ago the Good ski guide used to mention if a black piste was over 30º. Only a few runs in Europe were.
Look at the photo and try imagining this: If the guy in yellow put his hand out horizontally on a 55º slope he could touch the snow.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 9-03-09 13:23; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowball,
That guy in yellow outfit has left the upper section where the gradient appears to be the steepest. The rest of the Swiss Wall will not be as steep. This has been stated in the Wiki web page.
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Poster: A snowHead
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saikee, it was you who asked us to use that photo to gauge the real steepness.
As I said, in that photo it looks less than 29º in fact it looks like an average black run. But I can imagine the top must be much steeper or it wouldn't be called a Wall.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| saikee wrote: |
It is not really my intention to challenge you or skiking4 but I think for the benefit of the others we should be accurate with the gradient.
...ties in with some SH comments that it was not possible to see the bottom from standing near the edge. |
saikee - the "not possible to see the bottom from standing near the edge" isn't really accurate. The top of the wall is convex and has a lovely vertigious quality to it. It's very hard to get "near the edge" without actually being committed to skiing the thing. About 3m from the edge always looks much worse than being at the edge. But it's not somewhere you want to be on foot - or even retreating from.
I'd put the very top section of the wall as being just under the 40 degree mark for the first 20m. It's a sustained 35 degrees for about half the run before mellowing out gradually to around 15 degrees at the very bottom.
snowball is spot on with his observation that the bumps affect the apparent steepness. The first turn, in particular, isn't something you want to mull on for too long - primarily because you'll see the difficulties that everyone else is having.
Personally, I don't like andyph's advice. The edge of the wall isn't somewhere to be without your skis on. There are few cases in such terrain where not having skis on wins over having skis on.
skiking4 - I stand corrected and you have my apologies. The photo still doesn't look anything like that vertical though!  I'll check the Wall's vertical when I'm there next.
BTW - red 27 is being a tad dramatic. (I'm told that) In the "old days" the run extended further to skier's right and cut back in left - so that, if you fell, you could go over the cliff band (which is certainly further than 200 yards). This is aparently the source of the legend that every year 2-3 people died on the run. The right hand edge of the run has now been pulled back so that it avoid the cliff band. If you're skiing above the cliffs now you will have ducked the rope and be skiing off-piste.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Personally, I don't like andyph's advice. The edge of the wall isn't somewhere to be without your skis on. There are few cases in such terrain where not having skis on wins over having skis on.
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Fair enough. Having crampons or snowshoes would certainly be advantageous. Although if you wanted to look really nonchalant about tackling the wall, a dry martini adds to the air of ambivalence. I always carry one, just in case
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni, I bow to your more recent experience my Flying Friend 
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Someone give me a benchmark...
Psychologicaly, the steepest skiing I've done is the drop in to the Argentierre glacier at the top of Grand Montetts, Chamonix.... I say psychologically as is was boiler plate, day 10 of the holiday so my legs were shot and, unbenownst to me until we were 2/3 the way down, I'd left my boots in 'walk' mode so nothing was working properly!!!! So I may or may not have ski'd steeper but that felt bloody steep....
So can anyone give me a comparison between the 2?
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Vipa, not sure that drop off the Montets is a good benchmark - it seems to change every time i go there no doubt due to the amount of snow and what the glacier is doing at the time
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've done it four times. The last was largely spent on my bum desperately trying to break with my heels as I had parted company with one of my skis on turn 2 or 3. How it failed to decapitate someone as it made its own chaotic way down the run is a mystery to me.
I haven't been tempted to do it again since (and 10 years on suspect I never will). Very much enjoy going down on the chair and some of the skiing on the other side though!
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saikee, Winch-equipped piste bashers can piste some incredibly steep slopes.
IMO a very steep pisted run is more dangerous that the same run unpisted: on a very steep pisted run there is very little chance of stopping a slide once it has started - you just have to hope the run flattens out gentley and doesn't just stop at a cat-track (I know a few like that). Conversely on an unpisted run you do have the chance of stopping quite soon on a large mogul.
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FAQ
best not to fall at the top 
The chair lift going down from it is normally busier than the one going up 
, presumably measured with a protractor at the vertical edge of a mogul. 
Aside from that little bit of bullshite, there's a description with a couple of pix ... 
