 Poster: A snowHead
|
In my current first visit to the American resorts I came across some trail maps (Called piste maps in Europe) with some "double black diamond" and "extreme Terrain" runs. As far as I know the European black runs are between the single black diamond and double black diamond runs in the North America.
In Aspen's trail map the "extreme terrain" run, which is depicted by two black diamonds but with the word "E" and "X" printed inside the diamond, is defined as
| Quote: |
| Means any place within the ski area boundary that contains cliffs with aminimum 20-foot rise over a 15-foot run, and slopes with a minimum 50-degree average pitch over 100-foot run |
As both the wife and I are holders of free UK bus passes, which is another way to say we are over 60, we stay away from any piste that isn't groomed. In American a limited number single diamond black runs may be groomed (one has to check this with the daily grooming report). Double black diamond runs don't get groomed and technically it is impossible to groom any "extreme terrain" run. So we never try any of the extreme terrain runs but they are pretty common in resorts in Colorado, as we found them in evry resorts like Winter Park, Aspen, Breckenridge, Copper Mountain, Vail, Beaver Creek, Arapahoe, Keystone and Loveland.
I known the steepest groomed black piste in Austria is Harkiri. Its 37-degree gradient is at the limit of grooming and needs a steel cable attached to the grooming machine in order to carry out the grooming operation. Therefore in Europe only the ungroomed black runs may exceed 37 degrees. Ungroomed black runs are nowhere as popular as in the America. In many Colorado resorts the most difficult runs can be in the majority.
Since I didn't ski the ungroomed piste I couldn't tell if the American piste are more difficult than the European. However if the extreme terrain runs are popular, almost like an essential feature of a resort to attract visitors, and there are at minimum 50 degree avaerage then it would appear the American skiers are used to terrains much tougher than the European skiers. I say this because in my experience countries like Switzerland and Austria always groom their black runs. If a run isn't groomed it will be identified as a "ski route" which doesn't appear popular to the extent as an essential feature of a resort.
Wonder if other SnowHeads have experience of these American extreme terrains and can offer comparison/comment with the European piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Don't really understand your question. But I'll give it a try since I ski both side of the pond.
European blacks are similar in dificulty with North American blacks on average.
North American "double blacks" are never groomed, as you mentioned. So there's no equivelant of European "piste", which you've also observed. However, there're plenty of off-piste in Europe that are as steep as the American double black or even "triple-black"/"extreme". Just those aren't marked as "piste" as in N America.
So no, European pistes aren't particularly milder than their N American piste of similar marking. It's simply European resorts don't mark a lot of their tougher (yet perfectly skiable) terrains.
I also question your assertion that American skiers being more used to tougher terrain than their European counterpart. I went to EoSB 2 years ago and spend a fair amount of time skiing "between pistes" off-piste terrain (without guides, I might add) with other like-minded snowheads. Some of the terrain we skied would have qualify as "double black" had they been marked. Further more, I was in good company when skiing the "ski routes" in St. Moritz last spring. So I would say it's also reasonably "popular" for European skiers to ventuer into un-groomed advance terrain.
Yes, I skied double blacks runs regularly. And I've occasionally ventured into "Extreme" terrain. But I wouldn't say such terrain are "popular" with N American skiers. In fact, last week when in Telluride, I met a group of German skiers who were specifically looking for double-black/extreme terrain. None in our group was too keen to ski with them!
The only difference I observe between N American and British skiers are actually in skiing un-groomed NON-extreme terrain. It's much more common (or shall I say "popular") for N American skier to ski un-groomed blue (intermediate) piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Never mind double black-diamond - I don't think any single black-diamond here in Steamboat has been groomed this week (which is fine by me).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
abc,
So your opinion is the America extreme terrian is equivalent to some off piste areas in Europe. Many extreme terrains apparently require the skiers/boarders to walk up the slopes or ride a snowcat to get to but some do get served by normal chairlifts. In fact the world's highest skiing quad chairlift, claimed by the Imperial Express lift in Breckenridge serves exclusively the double black diamond and extreme terrain runs. These are designated runs in the trail maps.
Presumably American skiers can go off piste as well to seek a different level of thrill since there is a substantial followers on the back country skiing.
I suppose a mountain is a just mountain and there are always steep gradients to ski down whenerver one is seeking for it so the country where the mountain is located is immaterial.
I ventured to say the extreme terrain being popular after I checked the trail maps of the 9 resorts I had. I did see a big queue at Breckenridge's Imperial Express chairlift too. I formed an impression that it is almost a selling point of a resort.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
laundryman,
This grooming report published everyday in the Colorado resorts is new to the wife and I because in Europe I always assume all runs are groomed (that is my experience with the Swiss and Austrian). Based on the grooming reports we managed to ski some single black diamond in every resort except Arapahoe Basin. We dabble the mogul fields from time to time but our legs would not tolerate too much of it.
We were surprised that you found soft snow in Steamboat. In the Summit and Eagle counties, where the resorts are generally slightly higher, the snow is just about perfect. We came across occasional soft wet stuff only at the boarding points of some bottom chairlifts.
We were quite impressed by Arapahoe Basin which is the smallest resort with only 900 acres. Its bottom station is 3286m and the chairlifts can take us to 3801m.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
N American double blacks will often be to a European eye pretty notional and rarely marked with signs as they can be steep chutes, cornice entrances, tree mazes etc. Nothing burlier than you get in Europe but if its inbonds and open you at least have peace of mind that some snow safety work will have been performed. and usually major cliffs will be signed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have heard Americans in Europe say that they are surprised how few Europeans ski off piste, but in my (very limited) experience I was surprised that almost no US skiers skied out of bounds in the US, even when it was permitted. It makes me wonder how many US skiers understand that off piste is not avalanche controlled in Europe - and whether they know if their insurance covers them off piste here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| snowball wrote: |
| I have heard Americans in Europe say that they are surprised how few Europeans ski off piste, |
Well somebody is out there tracking-out the snow. Maybe it's the same two guys who are skiing pretty hard?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
maybe its the crop circle guys, getting some winter practise in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar, however, except in a few places like Chamonix and La Grave new snow doesn't get tracked out as fast, and in many resorts (such as Montgenevre last week) there are hardly any tracks off piste - even right under the lifts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
This is the big thing that draws me to North America and leaves me feeling unfulfilled on a European trip. Although it's probably true to say that, for groomed runs, European gradings are broadly similar to North American gradings, the joy of North America is the ungroomed runs. The high proportion of unbashed snow means that often a North American blue or black run is significantly harder than an equivalent in Europe. Over there, it's common to find even blue runs that are significantly mogulled and riddled with minor obstacles such as trees, shrubs and small rocks.
fatbob's point about snow safety work and signage of cliffs is important. My kids are technically proficient and pretty brave, so, in Jackson this year, my family spent most of the week on the single and double diamonds. Although I might have been able to find similar terrain in Europe, it wouldn't have been accessible to me - without local knowledge, tackling off-piste steeps, trees, cornices and chutes with children would be dangerously (and possibly criminally) irresponsible. Sure, I could hire a guide - but hiring a guide for 8 days costs a big wedge of cash for five people and I'm sure it would take away a huge part of the sense of adventure that comes from exploring a new mountain.
I'm willing to be proven wrong about Europe, though, so I'm seriously considering a week's excursion with a guide to a resort like La Grave for next year's trip. The comparison will be interesting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
saikee, Well for one I'd say that there are a couple of rather "easy" routes down from the Imperial Chair in Breck and secondly - please don't limit yourself only to what is groomed - you're missing out on so much!  Now I can understand you don't want to come across big icy moguls the size of minis, but the soft powdery stuff is very forgiving - especially if it's nice and cold and fluffy in the Rockies. If you've had snowfall in the "last few days" I'd chance it - especially in the bowls where anything light gets blown around. And believe me, there is *always* an easy way down and if it's tougher than you expected, it's nobody's business but your own if it takes you 2 hours with pit-stops to get down!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| snowball wrote: |
| rob@rar, however, except in a few places like Chamonix and La Grave new snow doesn't get tracked out as fast, and in many resorts (such as Montgenevre last week) there are hardly any tracks off piste - even right under the lifts. |
Yes, it's normally possible to find untracked snow, although you need to trek further afield to get to it as time passes from the last snowfall. My point is that anyone who argues that few Europeans seem to ski off-piste doesn't seem to be supported by acres of untracked easily accessible snow days after the last snowfall. If a resort is relatively quiet, which most are outside of school holidays IME, it will take longer for the ski domain to get tracked out, but that doesn't mean the off-piste isn't being skied.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Jonny Jones, a guide will cost you around €350 per day, though most don't like to take more than 6 people for safety reasons. We take a guide for 6 days for 6 of us, which means €350 per person for the week. Yes, that would be expensive for a family (I'm only paying for me). However, in many resorts that will mean you are skiing where nobody else has been (something I doubt you would be confident enough to do on your own and giving a huge sense of adventure). Last week we skied a side of a mountain where our tracks were visible all week as the only tracks - and then when it had snowed we did another route down it and again remained the only tracks till we left.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 10-03-10 11:45; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Just taking this seasons trips into account, europe v canada both zermatt and serre che had tons of people chasing 1st tracks after snow fall where as Sunpeaks and Bigwhite you had relative free reign and then it tracked out everywhere inbounds.. But I think the whole inbounds ski areas you have there means its skied different to europe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| The high proportion of unbashed snow means that often a North American blue or black run is significantly harder than an equivalent in Europe. |
Based on my one and only skiing trip to N. America about 3 years back, I think I'd agree with this.
Overall, I didn't feel that the resort was any steeper ... the main difference (for someone relatively early in my skiing career) was that there so many un-groomed runs, which certainly made some of the trails a lot tricker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| saikee wrote: |
| ....As both the wife and I are holders of free UK bus passes, which is another way to say we are over 60, we stay away from any piste that isn't groomed. .... |
In January I was with a 79 years old chap skiing steep and deep. Prior to this season he had not skied for a few years since he had had both knees replaced; he got on fine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| abc wrote: |
North American "double blacks" are never groomed, as you mentioned. So there's no equivelant of European "piste", which you've also observed. However, there're plenty of off-piste in Europe that are as steep as the American double black or even "triple-black"/"extreme". Just those aren't marked as "piste" as in N America.
So no, European pistes aren't particularly milder than their N American piste of similar marking. It's simply European resorts don't mark a lot of their tougher (yet perfectly skiable) terrains. |
This matches my experience, you aren’t going to find runs with mandatory air and cliff drops on a euro black run but will off piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
what Jonny Jones, and abc say
I love skiing in Europe - 9 guided days so far this year. But for ease of dipping in and out of what would be off-piste terrain in the Europe, and doing a bit with the family rather than committing to a whole day with a guide North America wins. For big gnarly mountains with 2000m off-piste descents you have to go to Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A lot of Americans are retards who are infatuated with their 'attorneys' and can't magange risk for themselves*, so the resorts have to be more controlling of all runs to avoid being sued by bubble-wrapped idiots who can't look after themselves. Here in Europe, people are (mainly) sensible and are able to manage risk, so we leave the offpiste to be actually offpiste, not half-tamed. I'm also pretty sure that the right places in Europe beat anywhere in North America (possible exception of Alaska) for seriously gnarly terrain.
*Maybe a bit of a sterotype lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| A lot of Americans are retards... |
I'm not sure that adding a 'lol' does anything to reduce the gratuitous offensiveness of that remark.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
| North American "double blacks" are never groomed |
While the number being groomed are a small (possibly very small proportion of the total) there are regularly groomed double black diamonds around, the one that immediately springs to mind is The Wall at Kirkwood off the Wagon Wheel Chair (10).
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
saikee, there are lots of pistes in Europe that aren't groomed every day if ever. There were several blacks in val d'isere whoch I don't think are ever pisted, Epaule de Charvet and Foret. In meribel there were signs saying that 100% of greens were groomed every night, 80% of blues, 50% of reds and 20% of blacks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
clarky999, Oh such negativity, for the EU it's off-piste here its out of bounds and there are open gates to go ski whatever and there is no lawyer standing at the ski area boundary with a waiver. It's a personal risk decision made by a sensible rider who knows how to manage and assess risk on their own.
I imagine the out of bounds at Jackson Hole is as gnarly as anywhere.
As I've mentioned before I used to ski 2000-3000' of slackcountry with cliffs and avy danger in hour laps down in S.E. ID, 3 hours to JH and the SLC resorts. Still some of the best skiing anywhere. Not possible this year but some years you can ski from the top of Bonneville Peak 9271' to bonneville rd and score over 4000' more cliff bands and some really nice old growth. Just an example of some of the bubble wrapped skiing available OB here in NA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| A lot of Americans are retards... |
I'm not sure that adding a 'lol' does anything to reduce the gratuitous offensiveness of that remark. |
The lol was just to denote, in the absence of voice tone, that I was joking with a stereotype (Obviously not all Americans fools), and that the comment shouldn't be taken too seriously - although there does seem to be a lot of Americans who can't take proper responsibility for themselves, hence the idiocy of people suing McDnonalds for making them fat etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
As I've mentioned before I used to ski 2000-3000' of slackcountry with cliffs and avy danger in hour laps down in S.E. ID, 3 hours to JH and the SLC resorts. Still some of the best skiing anywhere. Not possible this year but some years you can ski from the top of Bonneville Peak 9271' to bonneville rd and score over 4000' more cliff bands and some really nice old growth. Just an example of some of the bubble wrapped skiing available OB here in NA.
|
That's quite a lot of vert for North America but it still doesn't really compare to some European off piste in terms of size e.g. at La Grave there are a number of routes that start at 3600m and descend to the valley floor at between 1200 and 1400m. That's up to 7800'. Chamonix undoubtedly has more although that will involve some serious hiking, at LG that's straight off a lift. There's and example of one of the La Grave routes here and it's not infeasible for a reasonable skier to complete 5 laps of the lift system in a day (certainly we could and there's a lot better people out there than us), that's 10000m (over 32,500' of descent completely off piste or backcountry. I doubt there are many places in North America with that return.
I'm not anti-NA skiing it's just that Europe offers many much bigger descents hence why a lot of American skiers get excited at the chance to come over here. I'm sure difficulty-wise there's absolutely nothing to call between the continents.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Swirly,
| Quote: |
I'm sure difficulty-wise there's absolutely nothing to call between the continents.
|
I'd agree with that.
Also, on the non-grooming of Black runs, taking the PDS as an example, I can't think of any black runs that get regularly groomed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| A lot of Americans are retards... |
I'm not sure that adding a 'lol' does anything to reduce the gratuitous offensiveness of that remark. |
It is true though. In a country of that size, a lot of people are going to be retards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| bad_roo wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| A lot of Americans are retards... |
I'm not sure that adding a 'lol' does anything to reduce the gratuitous offensiveness of that remark. |
It is true though. In a country of that size, a lot of people are going to be retards. |
Word. And most of the non-retarded Americans I have met agree.
What is this thread about?
There is gnar everywhere if you look for it. My experience of NA resorts is too limited to comment on the rest of it.
Oh, and what about itineraries?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
clarky999, Here here couldn't agree more.
I'd also dispute any resort's claim that it has a run that's 50 degrees or has a mandatory 20ft jump in it. 50 degrees is f*cking steep, no seriously i mean it's really seriously steep e.g. twice as steep as the typical black piste in france. Obvious example of this is Corbett's couloir in jackson hole which has a whole load of hype surrounding it about a 20ft jump that you need to straightline out of in a tight steep couloir but as far as i can tell from videos of it i've seen it's really just a 6ft sideslip drop into a relatively contained space that looks like it's about 40 degrees for about 2/3 turns.
Davidof posted something on here (i think) a while ago about actual v real steepness & vertical drops in a lot places. It was fairly entertaining read & from my experience of a couple of the places listed seemed pretty much about right.
Oh & for the record i think the skiing in Europe is far better than in NA you just need to either have a guide or know what you're doing to make the most of Europe as you don't automatically get someone from the resort holding your hand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| frank4short wrote: |
| 50 degrees is f*cking steep, no seriously i mean it's really seriously steep e.g. twice as steep as the typical black piste in france. |
I think one thing we can agree on is that the Americans really have their marketing sorted with regard to run grading and snow quality compared to the Europeans. I'm as surprised as you at the 50 degree tag; I ski with quite a lot of 'mercans and they seem to get pretty freaked out at stuff over 40 degrees so I'm surprised they are reguarly shredding 50 degree slopes back home. As you said elsewhere every degree counts at that angle.
Another factor is that maybe we are not comparing like with like. A lot of the big French resorts are pretty aseptic. Most people want blues and reds to ski on so give the people what they want. Hell even I like blues and reds to ski on when I'm paying for a lift pass.
You have to look at some of the smaller resorts to find real pistes[TM] - my nearest resort has an enormous rock in the middle of the main run, that would have been moved as a hazard in one of the big ski domains... when there is enough snow you can ski up one side and huck off the top. Not every slope aspect has a run off it, so you can take the lift up and ski off the back then traverse round to the bottom of the lift. I took an American up there and he thought it was quite a substantive ski area and very much like back home. Americans who pitch up at places like Chamrousse think they've hit some major French ski resort, not some second tier place.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 10-03-10 21:04; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
snowball,...Hardly any tracked out in montgenevre???.... thank you for sorting one of next years trips...
okbye
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Pretty predictable direction of how this thread heading...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| snowpatrol wrote: |
snowball,...Hardly any tracked out in montgenevre???.... thank you for sorting one of next years trips...
|
just don't go there on a day that la Gr* is closed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| abc wrote: |
| Pretty predictable direction of how this thread heading... |
How would you rather it went?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| saikee wrote: |
| I ventured to say the extreme terrain being popular after I checked the trail maps of the 9 resorts I had. I did see a big queue at Breckenridge's Imperial Express chairlift too. I formed an impression that it is almost a selling point of a resort. |
Imperial Express in Breck is by no means 'extreme" by N American standards. It's marked as double black for it's steepness. But it's wide open so one can traverse across to make the "effective" gradian much less. It's one "trick" most N.A. skiers learn to deal with terrain that turn out to be over their head. The shape of the bowl is such after 2-3 turns, you'll be rewarded with progressively less gradien lower down. That might explain the "popularity" of that chair.
Also, on a good snow day, which Colorado does have quite many, the steepness feels a lot easier to deal with. Though this year isn't one such year. I've been told the bowls there got turned into giant mogul fields...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The great steep skier Remi Lecluse did a great talk at the Kendal Mountain Festival in 2008 - he used a step ladder to illustrate a 55/60 degree slope. Kinda puts it into perspective. If I could fathom how to post a picture of the demo I would!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
