Kids Trip Report - "The difference between Europe and USA teaching"

A snowHead

Recently I took family to Jackson Hole and we have a 20 month old and a just turned 4 year old. Evie and Millie.

Millie did 2 weeks at the Panda Club in Argentiere last year (aged 3) or maybe I should say with Evo 2 as it's not really what it used to be. More of that later. We also used to always take the in laws and pay for Granny as she would look after the younger one. Not on this trip.

I chose JH because my wife and I love it and I knew that they had a very good ski school and also brilliant green slopes for Millie to progress on. They also crucially have one drop off place for both day care and kids ski school. This is very unusual for Europe but very common in the US. First major difference from my point of view. It's enough of a hassle getting to kids ready let alone one having to go one location and one to another.

The next major pull was the fact that (a) they have a magic carpet (b) they then progress them onto taking trips up being pulled in a giant sledge by a snow mobile (c) they have heaps of different levels and each day (or even half way through) they can move them up or down a class. 1, 1+, 2, 2+, 3, 3+, 4, 4+ etc etc... (d) they have kid specific instructors not people who want to be teaching adults and got lumbered with the kids (e) they do a report card each day with their progress (f) they don't mix any kids older than 6 years old with kids of 4 years old for example. If you are 7 you learn in a totally different way to a young child so you have a different group. You get the picture.

Drop off at 0900am but we got friendly and could drop off at 0850ish and be in the Tram queue for 0855 and on the 2nd / 3rd of the day Very Happy

Pick up is at 3pm for a full day giving a really good length of time for parents to ski powder !

How was it? AMAZING - the difference between Evo 2 in Cham and this is like the difference between East Coast and West coast USA snow conditions ! Child throws a strop in France last year = put them inside or just ignore them. In JH they really worked hard with them to have a really great time and in 2 weeks Millie had a couple of melt downs and they just got her going again and by the time the pick up came she couldn't get enough and wanted to do MORE SKIING DADDY !

How quickly did she learn? This was the most amazing part. Day one we said last year she learned to turn but could not stop. Had a basic wedge going on but really needed an "edgy wedgey" to keep the snow plough working. End of day 1 and she had lost the edgy and could do a controlled pizza wedge and also stop at will ! Good effort.

Day 3 she was off the snow mobile rides and onto chair lifts.

Day 10 she was matching her skis (french fries in USA language) and had skied down from the Gondola !

Day 12 and she was getting into hockey stops.... flying through the trees in their "wood trails"

Day 13 she was bloody carving (video to post on this).

In summary could not believe it. Money SOOOOOO well spent. We also did 3 whole days skiing with Millie and I guarantee in Europe that we would have struggled to reach that stage.

In summary - it cost's a LOT but boy was it worth it for piece of mind and also the progress she made. At the Panda club they have no magic carpet, no lift that a 3/4 year old can use and they have teenagers in the class above. Even at places in Tignes like les Marmattons there is no way they would have been "out skiing" in the way they got them going in Jackson Hole.

Cant vouch for Austria or Italy but France v's this was like night and day.

Will post vids soon and also report on day care that was equally amazing !

Hope that helps some people who have kids.

Alex

A snowHead

sounds like a very good holiday!!!

Not all ski schools in France have such mixed age groups and no junior lifts though!

We here in Les Deux Alpes have childrens snow Gardens (jardan de Neige!) with carpets on the snow followed by a progression to a small drag lift (not button but an easier one for children) followed by leaving the garden for the very easy viking lift. The European Ski and Snowboard school works in one of these gardens and the Kindergarden is just that all 4 and 5 year old with other childrens group running separatly.

I hear of many bad French experiances but strongly beleive that there are ski schools out there that offer an excellent service and The European Ski and Snowboard School is one of them!!!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

alexchapman, yeah for sure I reckon there are and must be decent setups across Europe but I was really really impressed by this setup in JH at their Kids Ranch.

The day care was also amazing. Evie wasn't kept in doors all day. They did a mixture of inside and also took them out and about, up the Gondola all the way up the Tram even on one day ! They went off to see horses and were pulled around by huskies one day. We'd be out skiing and suddenly see Evie in the distance playing in the snow after being pulled up by snow mobile and the nannies. Really good service.

Back to the ski schools. I think the part that impressed me the most was the way they dealt with the kids. We always get told that Millie doesn't listen and she is really strong willed and last year one teacher said Millie was "un-teachable". But they didn't seem to have an issue with a strong willed child and just kept going through a combination of extreme personality and some great teaching skills.

I used to teach a lot but always adults but saw some of the poor service that my colleagues gave in the kids ski schools and i'm afraid this i've seen so many times.

I think the terrain you have to work with also means a lot. They are very lucky that they have about 2 miles of green slopes with lots of different routes down that are ideal for learning even in a blizzard. That's not easy in a european high altitude resort.

Will post vids later !

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Alex A, My 2 kids have mainly learned at the ski school at JH. The oldest aged 13 now skis black/double-black bumps and chutes. The 8 year old is getting there. The key thing has always been low pupil:teacher rations (usually 1: 3 or 4 unless at very busy times) and young enthusiastic teachers, together I suspect with a high degree of expectation from the parents that service will be excellent. The higher tree line also helps and both kids love skiing in the trees now. Discount parking too if you have to drop off at the kids ranch.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Alex A, stoatsbrother, it sounds fantastic, I will seriously look into it for next year. What appeals to me is that they have lots of different levels even for slight ability differences, whereas the norm in Europe is for consolidation into 'about the right level', and the low kid:teacher ratios.

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Alex A, sounds brilliant. Just out of interest, what's the difference in price between the Evo 2 and the JH options that you went for?

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Alex A, Thanks for taking the time to post that, it is always worth having the info on what the kids are actually likely to be getting, especially after our recent ESF experiences.

After all it is free

Alex A, Your holiday was obviously a great success and I beleive that JH is a great place and the ski school where excellent!!! I only wanted to point out that there were some good set ups here in France and therefore people shouldn't give up on France!!!

I myself haven't been to JH but have been to canadian resorts (which I think have similar ethos to american?) that have been fantastic, ski schools brilliant and great family holidays have been had!!! but equally I think France can be very good to as explained in previous post.

I think choosing your resort, ski school and childcare is very important and should be researched very carefully and recomendations are always a good place to start! and yours for JH is excellent and I'm sure many SH's will benifit from this. Afterall part (or most) of the reason people are snow heads is to discuss the pros and cons of various experiances and get recomendations for future experiances!

I also agree about the terrain and lifts available and some resorts are better for this than others!!! another important peice of research needed before booking a ski holiday with children! but again would like to say that France also has some great set ups as i'm sure does Austria, Italy etc.

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I suppose it's a case of "you pays your money....." Trouble is not everyone can afford the American experience (great if you can of course). My boys never liked group lessons and we came to the conclusion a long time ago that private lessons were much better. Even if you're on a budget (many of us are) say 4 or 5 private hours are much better value than 6X2 group lessons. And as Pam W says "long days". No substitute for mileage. Regards.

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I don't know about schools in Europe and make no comparative comment. Our children (now 11 and 12) learned in Canada (LL, Whistler and Fernie) and have had a very similar experience over time to Stoatsbrother's children - both now happily ski Black/ double Black runs, powder, bumps and chutes in the various Canadian resorts and are happy, confident skiers. Lessons over time have been expensive (I would hate to total their cost) but worth it in our view. Classes have been no more than six, frequently fewer, with a lot of attention paid to getting appropriate ages and levels together.

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We have used the kids ski school in Silver star and Sun Peaks with similar results. Both kids are happy skiing blacks and trees. The lessons were varied and and the kids changed levels every other day with the max class size of 4 kids.

What Alex describes is to me pretty much standard in our experience for the US/Canada. It _can_ be found in Europe if you look hard enough, but as others have said you really need to do your research in advance. The US/Canada makes it easy for the customer whilst Europe makes it difficult: which is a typical (UK) customer going to choose if they have the option??

You know it makes sense.

rob@rar, good question... just checked and it's pretty huge difference ! JH was £1026 for two weeks and the EVO 2 one was about £575 ish. Pretty much double then. But way more than double better IMO. The main trouble was in Chamonix that they couldn't keep up with her so she got bored really fast as she's very tall / strong for her age and after a couple of days walking up a slope she wanted to progress but with about 10 to a class they didn't really spend anytime with her teaching. It was walk up a slope and come down through some hoops etc... Then the second week came and they just put her through the same class again. Really bad it was. I then took her to Le Tour and taught her to ride the pomma lift but for love nor money I couldn't get her to stop aged 3. Then when in Jackson I saw them teaching them to jump in the beginners class and everything !! I think on average they only have them on the magic carpet for a few days then just start using the snowmobile.

Child care for Evie was same price. So a lot of money but I think worth every penny. Saving again already !

So want to post video but having trouble. Both in HD and have them on Facebook but cant access my youtube account at the moment for some reason !

As people have said it's a case of pay your money etc for sure but I really do think that some places could learn a lot from the way these lessons are structured and the techniques they use. Max in a class I saw was 5 but Millie had 2/3 or 4 each day.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Well that is certainly a massive amount of money and would buy you 10 x 2 hour sessions of 1 to 1 tuition in our neck of the French woods. It would be the same price for up to 3 kids. My grand-daughter - 6 years old, and a well coordinated girl, but not a very brave one, started at christmas with just 3 x 1.5 hour sessions with an instructor from our local ESI. She went at a slightly slower pace than the instructor would have liked - she wanted to take Lily up the big chairlift on day 2, but at Lily's insistence they spent a second 1.5 hours on the magic carpet. On the 3rd day she went up the lift, and loved it, and skied all the way down. I can't imagine how fantastic she'd have been after 20 hours - she made super progress in just 4.5.

Even Lily's 3 lessons cost more than a week of group lessons (maximum 10 in a group, 70 euros, 5 mornings or 6 afternoons). I had good experiences with kids lessons with BASS in Les Gets (group of 6) though they are way more expensive than the French schools.

I think we're comparing apples and pears here. Apart from the huge difference in price, there's a big difference between a just 3 year old and a just 4 year old. We wondered about lessons for 3.5 year old grandson at christmas, but he just wouldn't have got it. He loved toboganning and chucking himself in the snow but there's no way he'd have paid attention in lessons, and tried to do what he was told - he would just have spoilt it for Lily. I have no doubt he'll do fine next year - but for Millie, learning at just turned three would have been a pretty tall order. And is Argentiere really ideal for a baby beginner?

A snowHead

pam w, I think what I was trying to compare was a facility to drop off at 0900am ish and pick up later on to allow us a good chance to get some skiing in also. Lat year Millie was only 3 but she's a very active girl and had been for example doing swimming lessons since 3 months old and also lots of Micro sports classes etc and was ready for sure for a 2 hour lesson am and then some more pm. But when you look around the French alps and try to find a place that does this and feeds them lunch there aren't that many options. The Panda club in Argentiere always had an excellent reputation so the fact it's Argentiere really doesn't make that much difference when they are only on special beginner slopes etc within a kids club environment. If you try to compare the price of private 2 hour lessons that doesn't really offer the solution us and many people look for so Mum and Dad can also have a holiday also. Being experienced ex ski teachers and season workers ourselves we also look for a resort that will keep us happy from a ski point of view. The fact that JH is such a great resort for us and also happens to have this great kids facility is a real bonus.

I LOVE the French Alps and given great snow (like this year) believe me i'd love to have jumped in my car from France and gone to Tignes for example and used the Les Marmattons as that's a good little school also but then very limited options for the 20 month old without us hiring a private nanny or going with a tour op and using their nanny service which doesn't appeal having worked for them myself!

When I worked out the cost of doing JH against Tignes it was in the end pretty close for the Residence Montana against the Condo in JH. What you save in travel cost's and ski school you almost catch up on with the cost of living in Europe at the moment.

Lunch is double the cost. Beers double at least or even more. The cheapest option was to go for a less known French resort that included everything or a Ski Esprit kind of holiday but I dont that's really comparing apples either though really.

It's really tricky but I think for the next couple of years if we make this investment then we can then get back into Europe as they will both be flying by then and can join regular ski school or best still ski with us lots Very Happy

Tried the taking Granny approach 3 times and i'm sure it's worked well for many people but for us it caused more stress than I care to remember.

Does anyone know how the french system works with regards to kids instructors? Are they trained to teach kids or not? It's sooo different to a first day beginner adult and in my qualifications we never covered kids. 100% adults only and my impression at Evo 2 last year was that it was run with one ski instructor a day who didn't want to be there and then 2 really nice ladies who helped out. That's a huge difference to a young 21-30 year old keen PSIA Level 1/2 who wants to teach little kids and have a ball with them.

Just to clarify again i'm a MASSIVE french fan and would love to find this type of service as it's only 8 hours drive away ! Thread defo wasn't meant to be anti france. Crikey Jane and I will end up living there again hopefully.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have to agree with Alex A - our experience of North American ski schools has been first rate and rather better than we've seen in Europe. This is probably down to some significant cultural differences in the way that Europeans and North Americans take their winter breaks. In Europe, the land of generous annual leave entitlements, a normal skiing break starts on a Saturday and lasts for seven nights; in North America, a typical break is 3-4 nights and can start on any day of the week. American parents therefore have relatively greater concerns over flexibility and speed of progression, while European parents are relatively more price sensitive. There are other cultural differences, too, such as language and the attitude to learning through play.

The ski schools respond accordingly. In priority order, here are my top reasons why North American ski schools are usually better, if more expensive:

- Classes are rearranged by ability every half day
- Classes are small (4-5 kids)
- Resorts have double-black runs with no liability issues and use them in lessons from a surprising early stage
- Slopes are generally quieter, leading to a better teaching environment
- Instructors generally speak English as their first language and the kids therefore find it easier to relate to them
- There's a focus on fun rather than pure technique (eg some resorts have play areas hidden in the trees or Disney-style dressed-up skiing characters)
- Flexible classes start and stop on any day of the week and allow any combination of mornings, afternoons and lunches - great for top-up sessions

If you can afford North America (and it's not as expensive as you might think because accommodation, food and family lift passes are often much cheaper than in Europe), your kids are likely to progress much more quickly than in a European ski school.

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If you were to go to Tignes and needed a private nanny, I'd recommend Marije Pama. She actually lives in Tignes but came to La Rosiere for us this year for a few days. She is flexible and doesn't insist on a whole week or whole days. She was excellent with my 6 and 3 1/2 year olds. Pamachildcare.com

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Kids Trip Report - "The difference between Europe and USA teaching"

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