SSGB had the right idea! 1 gold and not much else not worth the cash....

A snowHead

[controv mode on]

So I reckon that SSGB had the right idea by folding and making it harder for our 'athletes' to get out to Vancouver - after all we've won one gold and apart from the odd 1/2 decent performance here and there not much else at all.

Who wasted the most cash - SSGB or the Beeb?

[/controv mode on]

A snowHead

So the only point of participating in a sport is to win gold medals, and if you don't you have wasted your time and money and might as well have stayed in and played on that Wii contraption all your life? Bit of a narrow view of things.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Well this funding thing has received plenty of forum space but when you compare the cash allocated to the winter olympic programs for British athletes to that of the Summer Games (£5m as opposed to £214m) is there any wonder why we don't bring home a higher medal tally.

And I for one have rather enjoyed Aunties coverage - i've watched a damned sight more Winter Olympics coverage than the Summer. It's a shame that winter sports don't feature on the Beeb more often.

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Its may not be about the winning but we should at least concentrate on sports we can compete in. I have often wondered why we attempt to participate in every sport, whereas other countries seem to concentrate on those they have a chance in.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The sad thing is that Baxter being robbed of his bronze would have had a major effect on SSGB funding - Sport England allocate funds based on success.

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Lizzard, surely the most significant point of sport is to win?

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The point of sport isn't all about winning medals, but the Olympics is. If it isn't then why not hold a draw that we can all go into for an Olympic place ?

After all it is free

hyweljenkins, no, it's actually to do it. Or are you suggesting that because I have no chnce of being an Olympic champion I should drop wintersports and take up crochet?

Canadian Ski Team have spent $4million and got precisely nowhere.

Who would like to swap shoes with the Austrian bosses at the moment?

Chemmy, on comparably very limited resources, would make it into ANY nations A team. What other non-alpine nations get as far up the leaderboard?

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Lizzard, no. I was going to edit my post to clarify that the point of sport at many levels, such as the Olympics, is for competitors to go out to win. For mortals like us, it should be either about doing our best to excel or to enjoy hacking our way, without any grace or style, down a black run. I would never advise anyone to take up crochet - that wouldn't be right.

There's no point anyone entering an event such as the Olympics unless they're going there to win. This is particularly the case with Winter Olympic Games when the host nation spends CAN$2,000,000 per athlete to host the event.

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So how much have SSGB spent on olympic participation etc??

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Bode Swiller,

Is that their annual spend (is that pounds or dollars)?

I agree Canadian skiing has been disappointing (although things may be different if they had had J Kucera)

I think its a grass roots issue. When we came here we were amazed how few ski. Even fewer have a passion for it. The average kid here probably does the same number of days skiing as the average british kid. In my son's class of 20, he is the only child who skis more than 5 days per year. In his grade of 40 he is the only child who skis more than 5 days per year. The kids are too busy playing hockey (5 yr olds play this 3 times per week) to go skiing. Things are better in my daughters class, where 1 other child skis a lot but she still skis way more than him, as we are prepared to give up our vacation time to ski, which is something Calgarians (and canadians) loathe to do - why go skiing somewhere cold with winter when you can escape it and pop to mexico seems the thing! Calgarians just don't seem to be able to fit it in! Sure those in race club get a lot of days in, but our race club only gives them that many days because they won't get it otherwise, eg their parents won't take them. Skiing, I reckon, has to be a shared passion. Everytime we have been on family ski holidays here we have been complemented by random people on the slopes that we are all going skiing together, this is spmething they don't seem to do that often.

Contrast this with Britain, where there will be plenty of kids who train twice a week on indoor snow and ski at least 12 days per year on the real stuff.....................

You know it makes sense.

david@mediacopy, the Olympic ideal is dead, and has been for years, though. Now it's all about money.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

hyweljenkins, In that case it's hard to argue for Public funding for ANY Olympic activities (wishes the French had won the 2012 event. They must the laughing their socks off).

A snowHead

hyweljenkins,

WHy is it so bad the canadians spend on their winter atheletes when UK clearly spends that and maybe more on their summer atheletes?

A snowHead

not just us that are asking questions...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic_games/vancouver_2010/8537873.stm

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'm not sure that I agree with Sir Steve Redgrave's comments regarding 1Gold is better than 5 Bronze.

In a wider context 5 Bronze medals would demonstrate that we are competitive in several disciplines with several athletes, and that multiple Gold is in reach.

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The writing was on the wall in 1972 when 15 year Shane Gould took on the world alone, so when the Australian Olympic team returned home without a gold medal in 1976, the nation vented their anger.
Anger at our politicians.
Opinions polls showed that Australians would not pay higher taxes for more welfare, schools and all them other things that politicians liked.
But Australians overwhelming volunteered to pay higher taxes to provide our athletes with better facilities and sports administration.
The politicians got the message.

Since then Australia has punched above it's weight.
How is it possible for Australia to win 2 gold and a silver at these winter olympics.
Answer when our athletes make the case for funding, the politicians tremble in their boots.
And it doesn't stop at the elite level.
Australians demand first class sporting facilities for all levels of sport from their Federal, State and Local governments.

Britain is spending 10 times Australia on athletes for the London olympics but that money is a spike.
Britain should be have been spending on athletes for a long time and keep that spending going for ever.

Stop whinging poms, start winning, it takes time and patience but you can do it.

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So sport is now solely about money spent vs medal targets achieved. How very depressing. Can't help feeling that cash wold be better spend on widening participation and providing accessible local facilities. Keeping Hillend open, for example.

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Lizzard, Yep.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

abominable, Us poms whinge? Surely not! wink

PS Advance Australia Fair! Toofy Grin

BBC slant on this issue

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic_games/vancouver_2010/8540102.stm

5.8million invested over 4 years. But they don't break that down to disciplines and the cost of entering that discipline i.e. been on the FIS world cup circuit.

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Seems like the BBC needs less funding, more for your athletes. The BCC don't realise that by supporting olympic competitors and their success you create heroes for your children. Then the children want to follow in the footsteps of their heroes and want to emulate them . That causes sport to blossom and create a healthier community.

While in primary school my nephew trained once a week at the local swimming pool. Imagine the inspiration when an olympic gold medalist made a surprise visit to their training session.

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I think the BBC Coverage was excellent and just as it should be........................I have certainly enjoyed watching the alpine events amongst others!!!

The Olympics is about all nations competing against each other large and small and should be supported in this way! we have the world cup for the best athletes to compete against eachother on a regular basis!!!

If the BBC cover the sports our young budding sports people will have a greater knowledge/passion for their sport/s and sponsership in the future is much more likely and therefore our athletes will have a greater budget to work with and the spiral starts to go upwards!!

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Dwarf Vader,
From the UKSport website:-
Bob Skeleton 2,110,000
Bobsleigh 496,000
Curling 1,136,000
Ice Skating - Figure 496,000
Ice Skating - Short Track 964,000
Skiing - Alpine 372,000
Snowboarding 248,000
Total 5,822,000

Is it any surprise where our one gold came from given those figures! Suspect curling may be facing some budget cuts for the next few years now!
Another illustration of UK attitudes to sport, my nephew, Zak, played rugby for his county side but was rotated out of the side "to give everyone else a chance". Couple of years ago they all moved down under, big sister took said nephew for a chat with the head of his new secondary school and the conversation came round to rugby ending up with Zak been invited back to the school that afternoon for a game. In between chat in the morning and game in the afternoon headmaster managed to get the state junior selectors down to the school and at the end of the match they introduced themselves and invited Zak to their next state squad training camp, he's been a regular in the team ever since (don't know how they got round the rule about living in the State a year before selection but they did!)

davkt,Well done to your lad.

I understand that breakdown, but I wanted to compare that to the cost of competeing at the top level.

I.e. Alpine skiing World cup circuit + summer training + equipment

You know it makes sense.

Dwarf Vader, The £372,000 for Alpine is actually spread over much more than the numbers you said. It includes all the GB team, male and female who raced in the FIS Team, Europa Cup team & World cup team - around 14 athletes in total. this has been spread over the past 4 years according to their levels.
As you say not a lot each. they have to rely on sponsors for both the team and individual to pay the rest. they all have to do fundraising events too.
I'm not certain if the freestyle get any of the Alpine funding - I don't think so. But you would have to look at SSGB's finances to see for certain.

I can personally tell you that for someone (TJ) to compete on the Europa cup team and go to the World junior champs + summer training + equipment, costs around £35,000 per year. The World cup is more as they travel a lot more.

Just compare Bob Skeleton to Alpine! Money per athlete is probably about ten times as much. Give the Alpine skiers as much and I know they would do much better.
Speaking on a personal note. If TJ had the same resources as the Bob Skeleton team he would be top 5 in World junior rankings not in the top 20 like he is.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Plugboy, Thanks for that, The numbers bring it home. It shows how little the UK cares about it's alpine sports on the world stage.

Take the summer games, a hell of a lot more money pumped into them, many more athletics I wonder what the cost/medal is there?

2008 Gold 19, Silver 13, Bronze 15, total 47

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Summer_Olympics_medal_table

And if I member right that was a very good year for GB after we pumped a lot of cash into it.

A snowHead

Plugboy, I have no wish to denigrate either TJ (whoever he is) or Chemmy - or anyone else, Brit or otherwise but I've never understood how simply giving cash to a professional (ie full-time) sportsman makes them any better.

The difference between part-timers and fully-professional athletes is easy to understand and, if it's down to better equipment, I can see how that works (although in most sports that's not normally the case IMV). Can a full-time athlete train harder in the gym just because they've got an income? Does it make them braver? Do they ski or run faster because they've slept in a 5* hotel instead of a 3*? How, in your opinion, would, massive lottery funding make Chemmy go faster or the Brit curling teams give their best performance when the pressure's on?

A snowHead

Dwarf Vader, and of those 19 Golds, 14 were between Cycling, Swimming and Sailing. Only one was won in Athletics (plus 2 Silver and one Bronze) which, IIRC, is getting £25m over the four-year 'Olympic Cycle'.

Equestrian, OTOH, won two bronze medals. Funding? £13m.
Taekwondo (one Bronze) - £4.4m
Badminton (erm, no medals) - £8m
Hockey (erm, no medals) - £14m

And don't even get me started on 'Handball'.......

Surely, when this funding is being 'decided', what the athletes actually need to do should be considered? E.g., a ski racer - needs to spend as much time as possible in the mountains. A Taekwondoist or Badmintoner needs to spend time in...erm...the local school Sports Hall?

source of funding figures: UK Sport

Red Leon...see above. More money gives more opportunity to train. More opportunity to train gives better chance of success. Do you think the nancy-boy footballers of Chelsea et-al would be able perform to the standards they do if they only trained one day per week instead of five?

Oh, and TJ is probably one of our brightest hopes for the future.....funding allowing!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Red Leon, I don't think it does much to increase motivation. In my limited experience of people who compete at this level they are already supremely motivated, and extra cash isn't going to make them train a bit harder. But, for example, some of the Alpine racers couldn't train in the Southern hemisphere this summer because of a lack of fund - not a brilliant preparation in an Olympic year? Not all the elite athletes have a full time coach, never mind other support staff like physios, ski service, etc. For those people who are trying to reach the elite squads there always seems to be a shortage of funds to just get them to competitions, never mind a full-time 'salary'. It's the support for the full-time racer that seems to be a missing component, not a financial incentive for them to do better.

BTW, TJ is TJ Baldwin.

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Red Leon, Pretty obvious really. If you give the money to an athlete, then they can train/compete full time. If you don't give them the money, they can't train/compete full time, as they have to have a day job to pay the bills. Therefore they cannot be as successful.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Red Leon, None of the British ski team are professional athletes. None are paid at all. they all rely on sponsorship to fund their full time racing and training programme.
TJ is my son and I can tell you he earns nothing from skiing. His programme costs around £35k per year. £15k comes from sponsors & grants, around £8k did come SSGB, the rest came from selling his old equipment, car boot sales, raffles and my pension!!
He is GB's no1 Junior skier and 1 of the best Junior skiers in the world at the moment ranked top 20 in both Super G & Super Combined & top 30 in Downhill.
More money would make a massive difference to his training as he could then get the same time on snow in the mountains as the Austrians, Swiss, Americans, Canadians etc do. They are all amazed at how good he is from what facilities and training he has had. He learned to ski on the dry slope at 6-years-old and did not actually ski on snow untikl he was nearly 10. Compare that to the rest of the Alpine world.
They do not stay in 5* hotels normally the cheapest B&B they can find, The money would be used for things like physios, fitness coaches, more training time in the alps etc etc.
I recently went to watch TJ at the World Junior champs in France. He was in with a medal chance in the Super G being ranked No8 in the race. He was the only British competitor. there was just him and his coach. Unfortunately he came out in the race at a spot where a lot of others had also come out as it was not skiing how the coaches thought it would. Why did he come out? because his coach was at another part of the course and could not get a message to him to warn him to change his line.
We had to pay his coach £800 for the 8 days he was there as SSGB has gone bust. We also had to pay the £750 for the accomodation for them for that time. Comparing him to what the other teams had there was laughable. At least 3-4 coaches plus 1-2 service guys + a physio etc. So it cost us £1550 for him to represent his country at the World champs for the week. Does that sound being professional to you? Do you pay to go to work!! I think not.
He is currently on the Europa cup programme, the one below World Cup and is having to pay his coach on a dayly rate, pay all his accomodation and we have just had to hire a vehicle for a month. The next 6 weeks will cost in the region of £4000. So even though he is a full time athlete, spending between 8-9 months of the year away from home he is definately not a professional and desperately needs more money.
Do you get my drift? Obvoiously you have never had anything to do with any sportsmen?
RobW, Thank you, you put it very well and much more concisely than I did.

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Plugboy, you will get nowhere asking and begging for money. Those who control your governments purse strings are only interested in how sports funding converts into votes. Those who control your corporate worlds purse strings are only interested in how it will convert into increased profits. But there appears to be force in Britain that remains untapped. You can see it at the proms when they sing Rule Britannia, it is the pride of the British nation. It is a force that can bring any politician or corporate CEO begging to help your sports people.

I previously posted what happened in Australia during the 1970s. The nations pride was wounded. The nation was furious that our politicians had not listened our athletes pleas for help. The politicians were stunned into action, they put in place professional structures for sport administation and then pumped money into facilities - the heart was the Australian Institute of Sport complete with a boarding school for elite junior athletes. State governments jumped in creating State Institutes of Sport. The corporate world quickly realised that being seen to support the nation’s athletes was the best form of market branding going around, forget about television advertising.

My advice to you is to organise British winter sports athletes and then target the pride of British Nation. Don't beg for money, demand that Britain's athletes get the best in world, because they are British. Start outside the proms gathering petitions. Make those politicians wish that they had put their expense account rorts into British sport instead.
Make them realise there is more to sport than football played by foreign brain dead zombies (caused by heading a football too often).

If all else fails your son could always try to follow in the steps of Dale Begg-Smith.
A promising Canadian junior mogul skier about to be expelled from the Canadian training program because despite being a teenager, he had business interests that did not allow him to train as required.
He spoke to the Australian team coach. Dale Begg-Smith's has won gold and silver medals as an Australian Very Happy

and is helping bring on Australia's junior mogul skiers.

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Red Leon, giving them more cash will help them do better, it means they can afford to pay their coach/trainer for longer, get some extra backup when needed and not be worried about funding when they should be focused on racing, if I were in charge I'd employ several coaches full time, during the off season I'd try and get the top juniors to train with the seniors, this would make a better use of coaches and also give some extra encouragement to the juniors, likewise I'd ensure the UK team had sufficient technicians and support staff when they need it.

Several years ago the British team had to drive arround the alps in their own very old cars, they had to do their own ski prep carry all the kit and so on, I know for a fact that one UK racer, who will remain nameless, almost burnt down the hotel he was staying in because he left the old iron switched on after waxing his skis in their basement, that was simply due to tiredness.

Giving better funding to a team will not ensure they will produce the desired results (The Canadians proved that this year) but cutting their funding will definately result in worse results

After all it is free

I hope seb c is reading this, the cost of 2012 could be slashed. Only athletes with
a chance of gold allowed. A quarter of the competitors, smaller village, no heats and all over
in four days-result.

It's a very emotive problem but there are lots of expensive sports where as 'Brits' we do well and produce world Champions without any public funding. Button in F1, Fogerty & Tosland in WSB and the current crop of World Super Bike guys who'll be fighting it out for a world championship who have no public money at all. A season's motorsport makes a season's skiing look pretty cheap in comparison.

What those guys prove is that it is possible to reach the top level of sport with private funding and no public money.

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david@mediacopy, those guys can all train in their native countries, all year-round if necessary.

Help!!

SSGB had the right idea! 1 gold and not much else not worth the cash....

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