Should people be able to go offpiste and put others at risk?

A snowHead

This topic was discussed on Austrian radio recently and I've seen a few related comments here.

This is one of them .....

A snowHead

When is the 'Skiing is better than boarding' thread starting?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Presumably, in the instance of UK mountain rescue, they do it because having a mountain rescue service avalible to people that enjoy being in the mountains is something that enables the volunteers to do mountain sports themselves?

If you ban mountaineering, you don't need a rescue service. If there's no rescue service, then going mountaineering isn't putting anyone at risk (bar oneself), so there's no grounds for banning it.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Of course they should. But they should only go off piste/into the mountains if they know what they're doing. It's not just their own life they are risking.

There is, of course, off piste and off piste. Going into the back country is nothing like sliding down the hill from the top of alift in an unpisted direction between two other pistes. You'd have to have a very particular set of circumstances where the latter is putting anybody else at risk.

I'm not in favuor of banning anything. But plenty of people head into the hills shamefully ill equipped.

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DB, Mate of mine is on a Scottish mountain rescue team - they totally love it when they get called out and they have great social activities and training connected to being in the team. In fact, if there were no people getting themselvers in trouble, they'd have to invent them.

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The event that originally got this topic going was when 2 rescuers were killed, but the people they were trying to rescue were (snowshoe) walkers.

James the Last, as I'm sure you know there is no backcountry in Europe. Is there any evidence that the back of the mountain is more dangerous than the front (other than being further from rescue)?

when should old people stop driving
when should ugly people stop having children
when should tourists not walk out to Worm's Head or Mumbles light house
when should walkers not walk in the cold
rinse and repeat ........... human nature

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If people choose to ignore warnings then they should have no expectations of the rescue services coming to their aid (and the rescue services should not be villified by the media for refusing to help them).
If people choose to ignore warnings and others are killed as a consequence then maybe they could be charged with manslaughter.

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rich.ll, did you read that in the Daily Mail wink

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Manslaughter charges are possible - and of course all should take care. OTOH, I do hope that hysteria does not build up about off-piste - and ban days out like this:

I've already posted the above pic - but it does sum up the magic of of-piste for me.

rayscoops, No. Iinfer from your comment that you think what I suggested is an extreme right wing approach. The Daily Mail is the type of paper I expect would villify the rescu services. If you disagree with what I've written please explain why rather than just giving it a label. If you're disagreements make sense I might then agree with you.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

achilles, I certainly don't think that off-piste skiing should be banned. All I'm saying is that people should be prepared to accept responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

A snowHead

A snowHead

rich.ll, most skiers that get caught in avalanches are very well prepared but mother nature can be a bit unforgiving at times and not too bothered whom she takes, and it is difficult for the rescue services to distinguish in advance between those that you would wish to leave to die for ignoring warnings, and those that you otherwsie deem ok to save.

That said, I would not expect rescue workers to go out at night in avalanche areas and put themselves in danger, irrespective of whether some one ignored warnings or not.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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The reason for the debate in the Austrian media lies not with any inherent problems related to off-piste skiing and dangers to rescuers, but with the law that states bodies HAVE to be recovered if at all possible. And that the local communities have to cover all the rescue costs if there is no insurance to call on. So far this season there have been a lot of avalanche deaths and injuries and the burden of costs comes back on to the often over-stretched local communities limited resources. You cannot always claim from an insurance policy.

We have a similar discussion every year when someone dies diving in the lakes of the Salzkammergut because they went too deep or their equipment is not suitable for the cold temperatures. There are several dive sites in Wolfgangsee and Mondsee where you can directly access very deep locations from the shore. People dive there because they have heard it is a good site, even if their skills level is quite low. The sites are very deep, over 100m in places and exceptionally dark and cold. You need to have excellent buoyancy control if you want to maintain a safe level. If you only have beginner equipment even in summer the first or second stage of your regulator can freeze up and free flow. They are not sites for beginners or ill-equipped wannabes, just like some off-piste slopes. As a result people die and the rescue services paid for by the local communities have to foot the bill for recovery. The bodies have to be recovered by law in Austria to establish cause of death and allow for probate or something similar. An insurance policy has been voluntarily introduced to help cover the costs or at least reduce the load on the locals, but some numpties still turn up, dive, get into trouble and the local rescue services have to try to sort it out. In the German lakes the rescue services are limited to 30m maximum depth, anything deeper and specialist dive groups such as the group I used to belong to, have to attempt to recover the body. But it is not obligatory and when they are too deep even for our best technical divers, we are allowed to leave them there. In Austria they use grappling irons until they hook the corpse.

The Mountain Rescue Teams in the UK are volunteer-based services. You pay for your own training and get a small contribution to cover a part of your annual costs. Some equipment is provided, but not all teams have this. You have to agree with your employer that you can be called out on shouts, but most do not get paid, the same as the RNLI volunteers. You are insured while on a shout, but I am not sure any more what this entails as it is over 20 years since I went out with my old team. I don't think that the insurance money though is any compensation for the loss of a loved one. Teams do lose members during rescues - the Locharber Team from Braemar and Deeside lost 2 members during a rescue on Lochnagar a few winters back, the Brecons team lost a member when he shielded the victim with his body on the north flank of Pen y Fan. I'm sure there are many other examples.

I was a member of the MRS in the UK because I wanted to be. I wanted to put something back into the environment that I enjoyed. I learnt from MRS people and I continued that sequence. I did not do it just because I enjoyed it, although I did often enjoy the training exercises (not all of them ) and the craic at get togethers was amazing. No-one forced me to do it, but my skills levels were improved as a result of my training so I was able to do more when I went off on my own. I certainly did not do it just for cudos which is what some of you seem to be suggesting. Sorry if I am interpreting your humour/cynicism incorrectly.

snowHead

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Off-piste doesn't appeal to me at all due to the extensive risks/cost involved but I can see the appeal to some. In the Alps are the rescue teams largely funded by lift pass income or purely by volunteers/donations? If the latter, then surely people would be prepared to contribute to that cost to fulfil their thrills? One thing that worries me is that there are a few foolhardy types who venture off-piste without the right equipment or when the avalanche risk is high, but I don't suppose there is any way of stopping them.

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Are they attempting to limit my hobby of venturing into the snowy wastes, making fantastic tracks over unbroken powder fields and burying bear traps a metre to each side Puzzled

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Scarpa,

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As I started the thread it's only fair that I post my views. I'm pro offpiste but against people dying (esp Mountain Resuce people) through other peoples ignorance or stupidity.

There was a recent case in Südtirol where 4 mountain rescue workers died trying to rescue two tourists who had ventured out in very dangerous conditions. Another person from Mountain rescue was heavily injured while another 3 had less serious injuries. The two tourists died.

Article in German
http://tirol.orf.at/stories/412332/

There have been a fair number of avalanche victims found in Austria this season without a transciever - this makes the search a lot harder.

I like skiing offpiste but try to limit my risk to thers by ......

1. When the avalanche level is above 2 I opt for ski tours with a very low avalanche risk.

2. I don't ski closed pistes/slopes in a resort as these are normally closed to prevent an avalanche onto other parts of the resort. If I trigger an avalanche I don't want to take anyone with me - my fun should not be their risk.

3. I wear a transceiver so that people can locate me far easier (after the first 15 mins your chances of survival are very slim). Should I not survive the transceiver enables my body to be located so that my family must not wait until the spring thaw and it reduces the amount of time the mountain rescue are in service.
Of course shovel and probe are also carried so I can help others.

4. I avoid (where possible) skiing on a slope that could avalanche onto others. On steeper slopes Chineese downhills are a no go.

5. I wear an airbag rucksack. Believe that this improves my changes of survival and means my body will not be buried too deep.

6. I take avalanche courses, check the avalanche warnings and pay attention to the weather esp the wind.

Even people with 40 years of experience die in avalanches (happened in St Anton this season) - I can't take out all the risk but don't see any harm in maximising the fun while minimizing the risk to myself and others.

Anything else that others here to to reduce the risk for themsleves or others?

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DB, bullshitting about Off Piste rather than spending as much time doing it as we might like certainly reduces the risk for some of us...

Embarassed

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DB, I pretty much do what you do although:

1: I base this on the current weather/snow conditions. I'll board off piste at up to level 4 but route selection is very important.

2: I will but only if I know exactly why they are closed and it has nothing to do with avvy danger e.g. lack of snow cover.

4: Any steepish pitches I always ride one at a time and when the bottom is clear of anyone ahead of us, at the very least this means if it goes only one person gets taken. Normally this is done by the first person skiing to a safe spot and the next person either skiing to them or to the next safe spot depending on terrain and whether we need to make a route choice .

5: Don't have an airbag but would if I had the cash, I do wear an avalung though.

6: I stick pretty much religiously to the 3x3 and reduction methods. This means turning back at times, but the slope will always be there, the trick is making sure you and your mates are too.

I also never ride above anyone (in my group or not) and get very pissed off when others do it to us, fortunately away from resorts this is very rare. And always remember the mountain has no feelings for anything or anyone. Decisions on route choice are a group affair where people explain why they think a certain route is safer or more dangerous.

I'll defend anyone's right to put themselves in a risky situation providing they approach it sensibly, if offpiste skiing was banned due to putting potential rescuers at risk (and I don't for one minute think it would) would that also lead to banning mountaineering, after all there's a lot of rockfall in the Alps these days and other sports? A part of me agrees with some of the Italian idea of heavy fines for people off piste without avvy gear, that I find extremely irresponsible and they tend to be the people with no terrain knowledge too, perhaps they would just buy transceivers but not bother to learn about safe travel, who knows. At least, for a while, it would mean more fresh snow for me wink

DB, I don't, unfortunately speak German, is your url refering to the occasion where the tourists were walkers or to another one?

I think sometimes people are lured into skiing slopes they are not sure are safe because turning back requires a slog back up. It takes a bit of self discipline to do this.

You know it makes sense.

snowball,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

There is no easy ethical response to the question. Those of us that have been doing it for years, either professionally or recreationally have built up a bank of experience that assists us to make informed decisions (and going too far from the blown slopes in Cat 4 isn't if you ask me) and assess the risks we are about to take - or not depending on the outcome.

Further to both your lists, I regularly dig a hasty snow pit to see the snow pack and to see how the layers have formed and whether there is an obvious weak layer. I have backed off regularly but also got caught a few times in places that should have presented no, or low, risk. One of those occasions required the Cairngorm MRS to come and assist with the extraction of 8 of us by helicopter. That was not after a hasty snow pit but a full pit and shear test... It is an imperfect world.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Managed to find something in English and yes they were walkers (snowshoeing I guess)

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So did the walkers die in the avalanche triggered by mountain rescue?

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achilles, they're methods for assessing and managing risk in avalanche terrain, the theory being that they reduce the risk to similar to a mountain walk in summer, I'm not sure about that but it helps me make judgements on the ski or walk away descision in a real situation i.e. when the snowpack is neither a large lump of ice that's going nowhere or a tottering mass with the stability of a house of cards.

Briefly (I'm not sure a forum is the right place to go into specifics, it really needs more detailed explanation) 3X3 assesses terrain, weather and the group before, approaching and during a descent. The assessment follows the lines of what do I expect to see, am I seeing what I expect to see etc. The reduction method is a way of using information on current snow conditions e.g. from the avvy bulletin to determine a safe route choice, as such it's a pretty quick and simple method taking into account steepness, aspect and the group.

AFAIA these are the current methods taught on avalanche courses, certainly they were in December 2009. I say pretty much as sometimes conditions may be locally different e.g. odd wind directions: if the methods say no then I won't go, if they say yes then I'll still be aware and looking for danger signs.

I do occasionally dig a pit but the problem with them is they only give a snapshot and you might have to go onto a dangerous slope to dig it. IMO you should have a good idea on what you expect to find before digging based on your knowledge of the preceding weather and previous snowpack. Obviously this is much easier if you are in an area for a long time.

Should actually be "Chinese" but I can't spel. Smile

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Swirly, Thanks for that. I keep reading - and discussing with those around me when I am out in the mountains. And if I don't know the area, and what's been going on, I chat with those that do, but I still have a lot to learn. One thing I don't do is take ABS or similar. It strikes me as hassle to travel with, there must be a weight penalty - and on balance I don't think the risk over my 3 weeks skiing a year would justify the cost (yes, I know if caught in an avalanche I would take a different view!).

Help!!

Should people be able to go offpiste and put others at risk?

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