 Poster: A snowHead
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Salzburg summit on night skiing
"A summit on night skiing took place yesterday (Tues) in Salzburg under the chairmanship of Wilfried Haslauer, the People’s Party (ÖVP) provincial councillor for tourism.
Attendees included representatives of ski lift operators, Alpine associations and municipalities.
At the summit, it emerged that most lift operators wanted pistes and mountain huts to be closed by 5pm or 6pm at the latest in order to enable them to groom pistes for the next day’s skiing without worrying about skiers who might ski into grooming machines......."
http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2010-03-03/21207/Salzburg_summit_on_night_skiing
Also a very interesting comment about off piste/ski touring:-
"On a related issue, calls have been made for a code of conduct for ski tourers amid warnings they are endangering wildlife.
The Styrian Agriculture Chamber, The Austrian Alpine Association and the Styrian Hunting Fraternity called in January for a code including ten regulations calling on people to remain on marked trails, avoid areas of young forest growth and ski only in areas with sufficient snow.
They added the next step would be for provincial and local tourism offices to start an information campaign to make ski tourers aware of the problems they could cause....."
I've not seen it in previous years, but have several times this season seen signs which tells skiers to respect the surrounding flora and forna
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sleipnir, 'endangering wildlife' LOL I have been served every single mountain beast in some Austrian restaurant or other over the years - they are already in a whole lot of danger...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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There's plenty of signs saying "it's your forest" around ski amade area - I take that to mean it's a great idea to go have a look around!
Can understand keeping skiers out of areas of young trees that are being grown but I noticed a sign today telling me to respect the forest directly above an area that has been logged, there were no trees left. Ski resort infrastructure clears huge areas of forest, so seems somewhat hypocritical to tell me and a few other skiers to stay out of some trees here and there.
I've heard of a few bad accidents in the ski amade area this season from people staying in the mountain huts til dark and skiing down whilst under the influence. A dangerous game with consequences, something I've done in st anton years ago, not really my cuppa tea anymore.
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| Quote: |
There's plenty of signs saying "it's your forest" around ski amade area - I take that to mean it's a great idea to go have a look around!
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Lots around the Arlberg too, but telling you to stay out! I don't think there are any proper tree sections in Anton that you're 'allowed' to ski, with pretty serious consequences if you're caught doing it.* Bit gutting really, I love skiing the trees.
*Fine (I think it was around 1000 yoyos) and lift pass confiscation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| waynos wrote: |
| I've heard of a few bad accidents in the ski amade area this season from people staying in the mountain huts til dark and skiing down whilst under the influence. A dangerous game with consequences, something I've done in st anton years ago, not really my cuppa tea anymore. |
waynos there were these two fatalities recently
Second Austrian night-skiing death in a month
A skier died on Thursday last week of internal injuries suffered two days earlier in a night-skiing accident at the Rangger Köpfl ski area in Tyrol’s Innsbruck-Land district......
It was the second night-skiing death in Austria in one month.
Calls for a ban on night skiing came early this month after a woman was left in a coma and later died at Schladming hospital following an accident as she skied down a mountain in the dark"
http://www.austriantimes.at/news/General_News/2010-02-15/20642/Second_Austrian_night-skiing_death_in_a_month
But as you said, as for the second fatality, skiing down from a hut at 11pm in the dark you have to question the sense of this, as no doubt alcohol was involved in this incident
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clarky999, Wengen now has extensive areas where tree skiing is banned, as well. 
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| Sleipnir wrote: |
| in order to enable them to groom pistes for the next day’s skiing without worrying about skiers who might ski into grooming machines......." |
I agree night skiing is bad for preparing pistes for next day, but on the other side they should be worrying about same problems during day. I never see so many ski-doos, pisten bullies etc. operating during day as I see them on Austrian ski places. It's far from nice thing getting down and over the break at 80 or 90km/h and being eye to eye with pisten bully going up on middle of course. Not to mention there's no warnings, course closure or anything similar. Pisten bully has blinking lights on, which of course you can't see until you are infront of it, sound signal which of course you can't hear further then 20m and that's it.
Here in Slovenia, we have law, which forbids operating pisten bullies on open course. If pisten bully goes out for whatever reason, course has to be closed. I don't know how it's in Germany, Switzerland, France, Finland etc, but even if they don't have law like this, they obviously have common sense and they use it, since I never saw pisten bullies operating during day... at least not to such extend as they do in Austria.
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Samerberg Sue, I have skied down into Flachau at 4pm and have been faced with 6 bashers, in their usual staggered bashing formation, coming up the slope to me. The bashers look slow but actaully travel at the same speed as a reasonably fast chair when they are working.
That said there was ample room and time to avoid them.
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I was teaching a very nervous beginner in Solden and I was pretty alarmed to see a pistebasher on the piste on a couple of days. It seemd to act as a magnet for quite a few skiers who appeared to be drawn towards it 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Frosty the Snowman, kids and beginners aren't very good at avoiding even rather large things. Can't quite se why they want to groom the pistes during the day anyway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
This whole thing smacks of 'elf &safety going wild - please Austria, leave poor old Blighty to suffer under that burden seeing as it seems to be carved into its psyche now!
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I agree. Don't 'ban' night skiing, just leave it as it is now - the mountain is not open/controlled/patrolled, so if you want to be up there, take responsibility for yourself. Wouldn't work in Britain, but hopefully in Austria sense will prevail.
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Frosty the Snowman, at that time they are starting their night shift and are getting into position. You expect to see them coming out of hibernation then! And as you said you can avoid them. They are certainly loud and bright enough even in a snow storm!
Lizzard, They are not grooming as such but removing hazards that may have developed and causing other problems. They are also used to transport netting, piste markers and equipment for the lifts. We are talking one, maybe two at the most and never in a line across the piste.
The use of piste bashers around beginner areas is carefully controlled. Classes are moved to one side while the problem is sorted. If the skiers cannot do a controlled stop or a gentle turn out of the way, WTF are they doing on that slope please?
rob@rar, I think that is the "velvet" calling. Unfortunately some people don't have the nounce to wait a few minutes for the beastie to finish whatever it is doing.
What's the fuss all about - what really is the difference between piste bashers going from A to B and road cleaners or any other maintenance vehicle on a highway? You slow down, go past and avoid them without any hassles!
The original debate was due to some unfortunate accidents that occurred AT NIGHT. When are the piste machines supposed to be out and about working if not then? Idiots who drink themselves senseless and then have an accident are not worth the bother to be brutally honest. I have every sympathy with the poor drivers who suffer the trauma as a result of just doing their job. I also have sympathy with the communities that live in these villages as if there is any litigation it is them that eventually foot the bill. I think this is what is driving the debate in Austria now - fear of litigation. God help us!
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You know it makes sense.
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Samerberg Sue, it just seems unnecessary to have a large hazard like that in the middle of a piste during the day. Even if it's stationary it's still a hazard. Until I saw it on Solden this season I can't recall seeing a piste basher on piste before 6pm, so many resorts seem to manage. Is there really no other way to do whatever work needs to be done?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
They are not grooming as such but removing hazards that may have developed and causing other problems. They are also used to transport netting, piste markers and equipment for the lifts.
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What hazards? And we use skidoos for the other stuff here. I personally don't like the combination of dameuses and people, since it's very difficult for the driver to see someone who has got too close to the machine. It's all very well to say that inept skiers shouldn't be there, but being squashed by a piste basher is rather a harsh penalty for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, don't you think?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| waynos wrote: |
| There's plenty of signs saying "it's your forest" around ski amade area |
are you sure the signs don't say "It's their forest" something like es ist ihr Wald.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue, Well said... Austria is gladly free of all this pathetic handwringing and long may it stay that way.
If you can't see/hear/avoid the bashers you shouldn't be on the mountain - in fact you probably shouldn't be on the planet!
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I don't think it is anything to do with a nanny-state culture; I'm just confused as to how some resorts seem to manage to conduct their business perfectly happily without needing to have piste-bashers on open pistes, while other resorts deem it necessary.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| primoz, I don't think it is a major problem in the day time at all. And if you are skiing a piste at those speeds, you are either not in control or being blatently reckless with regards to other users. Snowboarders sitting on the downside of that break are not wearing blinking lights or sounding their "Martinshorn" either! Nor is the beginner who just fell over! |
I don't know if it's major problem or not, but it certainly doesn't feel good. I don't know how many people get injured or killed by this, but even if it's just one a year, it's too much. They need to "carry goods from A to B" on other places too, yet they don't do it in middle of the day, or they do it on "service roads", where skiing isn't allowed.
As far as my skiing goes, yes I normally do ski at speed like this. Considering I didn't hit any pisten bully, snowboarder sitting on the downside of that break, nor beginner who just fell over in my 30+ years of skiing, I can say I'm neither "not in control" nor "being blatantly reckless with regards to other skiers". There's a bit difference between some beginner who was never skiing and some racer, and skiing at particular speed might be perfectly fine for someone, while it's suicide for someone else. So there's really no need to call someone being blatantly reckless, just because skiing at particular speed (and it can be 30 or 130km/h) is too much for you.
But no matter what, snowboarders sitting under the break and pisten bullies/ski doos being on middle of course go on my nerves, because it's unnecessary risk, which could easily be avoided. And it doesn't make a difference, if you are skiing at 30 or 60 or 100km/h.
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In ref to piste basher being a danger during the day there was a very tragic fatal accident last season at Zauchansee where a young kid was in a tuck, not looking ahead and collided with a piste basher going uphill. It was on a busy blue run late afternoon.
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waynos, Darwin Award
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Waynos, tragic - but ultimately down to stupidity.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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clarky999, red 27, a tad hard guys, i think the kid was only 8 years old. The questions is should piste bashers be moving uphill on a very busy home run at rush hour? This seems to happen on a regular basis on this slope at zauchansee. I'm all for personal repsonsibility but for an over excited young kid on piste they're supposed to be in a controlled & safe-ish environment, it was a blue run. Don't want to be too judgemental on this case as i don't know all the facts. Generally I don't mind too much about uphill traffic as i'm looking ahead and in control, but my kid has just started skiing so I see things a bit differently now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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waynos, maybe a little, but if there had been no accident I think people would say the kid was stupid, just 'cos the end was tragic doesn't change that. You should look where you're going, end of. A big red beeping flashing piste bashers is pretty difficult to miss if you're paying even an iota of attention!
Anyway, I think the whole problem would be solved if piste bashing/grooming was banned 
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| rob@rar, the problem is not as big as people are making out! Think back how many piste bashers were on the runs when we were in Sölden - 2 or maybe 3 in the whole week. It was not constant, nor was it every day. |
That's about how many I saw when I was there in January.
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
As usual all the nannies are making the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. What it comes down to ultimately to the proverbial "my country/resort/nation/whatever is better than yours"!  |
I'm really not trying to turn this into a my country/my resort argument. I have no loyalty to anything other than being passionate about skiing itself. Sure, I have a place in Les Arcs but I'm equally happy skiing other places: for example, by the end of the season I will have skied about 4 weeks in Les Arcs and about 6 weeks in other places. I have no desire to get into my whatever is better than your whatever.
I don't think I am being a bit of a 'nanny'. If it's necessary to run pistebashers on open pistes, so be it. I don't have a problem with it if it's necessary, although if it wasn't necessary I'd rather not see them during the day. What I don't understand is why some resorts think it is necessary, and why some resorts don't.
As for making exaggerated claims, aren't you doing just the same:
| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| It seems that the Nanny State mindset is more invidious than we all realised. How long before skiing is banned because you might get hurt, or off-piste because you might be caught in an avalanche. |
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| primoz wrote: |
Considering I didn't hit any pisten bully, snowboarder sitting on the downside of that break, nor beginner who just fell over in my 30+ years of skiing, I can say I'm neither "not in control" nor "being blatantly reckless with regards to other skiers".
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Or we could say you have just been lucky 
Or more likely, are over-estimating the speed you are doing.
| Quote: |
There's a bit difference between some beginner who was never skiing and some racer, and skiing at particular speed might be perfectly fine for someone, while it's suicide for someone else. So there's really no need to call someone being blatantly reckless, just because skiing at particular speed (and it can be 30 or 130km/h) is too much for you.
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To travel at 80 or 90Km/h on normal open pistes is reckless. That is the sort of speed normally achieved on WC Super G races, but it can be done then because of extensive safety netting and closed courses. And the pistes are very carefully prepared.
It might be OK if you manage to get on the first lift in the morning, so can be almost certain there will be nobody ahead of you on the piste, but later in the day it simply cannot be safe.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ok I'm lucky and reckless, and out of control, and I over estimate speed on sticks I spent all my life racing on. I agree with you guys, what should I know about skiing anyway 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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primoz, It doesn't matter how much skiing you have done (including racing at a high level, I believe).
If you are honestly saying that you ski on an open, normally groomed piste at the same sort of speed you would ski a world cup super-G (the absolute peak speeds at that level are usually around 100km/h, but only for a few seconds of the 2 minute course), then you are skiing dangerously (both to yourself and to others), no matter what you may believe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You have to be colossaly thick to run into a piste basher no matter what the conditions.
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primoz, I have to agree with alex_heney. If you are worried about hitting a piste machine you haven't seen, then you aren't skiing in control. Being in control means being able to stop within your braking distance (or avoid any obstacles), the same as in a car.
However, I must also say that I'm not keen on piste grooming during the day. Round about here (Schneewinkel) the machines mostly only come out towards the end of the day (or for heavy snowfalls), which does mean that the piste may be slightly easier to ski for a few minutes. But whether that is worth the risk of someone skiing into one, I'm not so sure (although probably most people who do are skiing recklessly or, like the young boy who died, are too inexperienced to know about the risks). However, maybe the experience of the ski area operators is that the grooming reduces accidents with tired skiers in heavy snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Not to mention there's no warnings, course closure or anything similar. Pisten bully has blinking lights on, which of course you can't see until you are infront of it, sound signal which of course you can't hear further then 20m and that's it. |
If people cant avoid a piste basher they shouldn't be bloody on the slopes on their own anyway. I really can not understand how anyone can have a problem with these machines working during the day, its absurd - not like their difficult to spot, they are big, make a fair bit of noise, usually have flashing lights and/or beepers....
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| Quote: |
| If people cant avoid a piste basher they shouldn't be bloody on the slopes on their own anyway. |
Sure feel free to think whatever you want. But please tell all those people who got killed by pisten bullies, which were out on open slopes, that it's actually their fault. And being a bit worse skier makes your chances to get killed even a bit better. Why? Let's say you slip above that machine, you won't stop in second, but in 3 seconds you might end up 50m below just under tracks of that beast. Sure it's going to be your fault, but I'm not sure you will still be so happy to have them working on slopes at that time. Just last winter little girl died here, when pisten bully was crossing path of ski lift, where she was going up, and hit her. Yes I agree, if she can't avoid that huge thing, she shouldn't be on slope anyway. So operating pisten bullies on open slopes is perfectly fine, people, who in first place don't even expect heavy machinery on open slopes, are problem.
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Noticed that signs have started appearing on the small resorts around Vienna telling ski tourers not to use the piste after 17:00.
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[quote="primoz"]
| Quote: |
| Sure feel free to think whatever you want. But please tell all those people who got killed by pisten bullies, which were out on open slopes, that it's actually their fault. |
get the Ouija board out, c'mon on now, join hands around the table...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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primoz, here the resorts are actually obligated by specific guidance by the HSE with regard maintenance of uptracks to use machines while the area is open, even leaving that to the side it's often necessary to work on lift tracks regularly through the day to keep them usable and even if that was all the machines did they still have to move around the mountain.
Off course that's not all they do, they move supplies, staff, equipment, ski patrol, evacuate causalities, go to lift breakdowns if heavy equipment is required, piste slopes, move snow....
Snowsports are not risk free, mountains are potentially dangerous and there are numerous hazards and risks natural and man made, if you can't accept them, stay off the slopes.
People ski into trees and die, perhaps they should not be allowed on the mountain during opening hours... People ski into lift towers and die, perhaps they should be banned too... oh wait!
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