 Poster: A snowHead
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I know that a lot of snowHeads ski off-piste without avalance kit, to the side of pistes and in other areas they consider (and I believe them) completely safe. Could people explain how they assess what is completely safe in this regard? I'd like to try a bit more of that kind of thing, now that I own skis which I can manage better in variable terrain, but have little idea how to assess what's safe and what isn't. Maybe, in time, I'll start skiing properly off-piste, with guides and kit and so on, but it would be nice to experiment a little first. (It can be assumed that insurance cover is adequate.)
Thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not sure a forum is the right place to learn this kind of thing but a couple of points.
The avi kit doesn't make the off piste any safer. So whether you have the kit or not shouldn't change your assessment of a slope. I know that is pretty obvious but still.
First of all if you are skiing in France and don't really know what you are doing do not ski off piste above risk 2 (moderate) - take the risk announced by the pisteurs locally in resort in preference to that announced by Meteo France (this is an unofficial figure but often better reflects local conditions). There are very few fatalities at risk 2 in France, even fewer if you take the resort announced risk. This means the Yellow flag should be flying at the bottom of the ski lfits. NOTE: This advice does not apply elsewhere.
Otherwise I suggest you read this article written by someone who knows what they are talking about:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/6980399/Ski-safety-how-to-avoid-avalanches.html
In particular avoid steep slopes, especially those where you can't see the bottom (convex) and slopes that end in a gulley or flatten abruptly. Favour concave slopes that run out slowly or ridgelines. Look above you, steep slopes above are just as dangerous.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 9-02-10 16:57; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Difficult to assess something as completely, 100% safe. Low risk, perhaps, or very low risk, but not completely safe. Some things to consider:
Have you read and understood the local avalanche forecast?
Have you constantly looked around for signs of avalanche activity that day, especially on slope with a similar aspect/pitch to where you might be skiing?
How steep is the off-piste slope that you plan on skiing (gentle slopes are better, sweet spot for avalanche activity is steep red/black)?
Is the slope above you steep (ie more likely to slide)?
Are there other skiers skiing above you (could easily cut a slide on to you)?
Is there a terrain trap below you (where snow could pile up)?
What is your escape route/island of safety if you feel the need to get off the slope?
Do you know what the recent weather and snowfall has been?
How well do you know the slope that you intend to ski?
Just some things to think about.
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davidof, thank you. Yes, I understand about the kit not making a slope safer. I guess what you're saying is that the same rules apply, whether you're a foot from the piste or way off in the back country. Fair enough.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I guess what you're saying is that the same rules apply, whether you're a foot from the piste or way off in the back country. |
Yes. No such thing as a little bit off piste. You either are or you aren't.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Also if you're considering getting into tree-runs between pistes, this link is one i and others have mentioned before about tree-well safty is worth a mention...
http://www.treewelldeepsnowsafety.com/
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just follow the local SCGB 'guide'.....chances are that he is only following another guide who might actually know what they are doing
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Hurtle, same rules but very rarely the same risk. After all, most resorts will seek to ensure (as far as they can) that pistes are avi free thus off piste from one piste to another is unlikely to be an avi risk (subject to the normal rules).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tiger2 wrote: |
| Hurtle, same rules but very rarely the same risk. After all, most resorts will seek to ensure (as far as they can) that pistes are avi free thus off piste from one piste to another is unlikely to be an avi risk (subject to the normal rules). |
I might be wrong, and will be happy to be corrected, but I think the majority of avalanche deaths occur relatively close to pistes. davidof do you have info on this?
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What do you guys think about the marked ski routes in Austria? Avalanche controlled but not patrolled. Would you happily ski these (when they're open) without avi kit? Or would you err on the side of caution. Personally I always have my transciever etc with me anyway in case the opportunity for something cool arises, but in theory these slopes should be safe
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| davidof, thank you. Yes, I understand about the kit not making a slope safer. I guess what you're saying is that the same rules apply, whether you're a foot from the piste or way off in the back country. Fair enough. |
or just because you have a beacon doesn't mean it is reasonable to ski a suspect slope. If you buried 50cm or more by the slide a beacon probably only gives you an evens chance of being found alive.
If you wait till spring (usually from mid March in France) and ski in the morning (before 10am on east sector slopes, 11am in the south) after a good refreeze and with no fresh snow your chances of being avalanched are very very low. Your chances of falling, however, are higher.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If they are
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Avalanche controlled |
I would ski them without too much concern (although that doesn't mean I wouldn't also think about snowpack stability while doing so).
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| What do you guys think about the marked ski routes in Austria? Avalanche controlled but not patrolled. Would you happily ski these (when they're open) without avi kit? Or would you err on the side of caution. Personally I always have my transciever etc with me anyway in case the opportunity for something cool arises, but in theory these slopes should be safe |
Do you mean the un-pisted runs marked with a dotted-line on the resort maps?
I tried a couple of these last week when I was in Zell am See ... but apart from being un-groomed I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they were the same as the other marked pistes (and, from memory, no further detail was given on the piste-map).
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Tiger2 wrote: |
| Hurtle, same rules but very rarely the same risk. After all, most resorts will seek to ensure (as far as they can) that pistes are avi free thus off piste from one piste to another is unlikely to be an avi risk (subject to the normal rules). |
I might be wrong, and will be happy to be corrected, but I think the majority of avalanche deaths occur relatively close to pistes. davidof do you have info on this? |
There are certainly a number of deaths very close to runs. Are you referring to the post just above? I think it is easier to assume that off piste is off piste but obviously a lot of factors apply. If you have say the home runs at l'Alpe d'Huez which are around 20 degrees and ski between them you would not expect to get avalanched.... you might fall into a stream though. 
Note: In Switzerland there are quite a lot of fatalities at risk 2 - it is a more continental snowpack than in France though and Austria even more so.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, thanks, that's very helpful. What brought my question on was pottering about between pistes, something I've done little of before, with an ItS instructor in Courchevel. There wasn't really time to ask about this sort of thing, though I should have liked to do so.
It's precisely because the lawyer in me knows that there's no such thing as a little bit off piste, that I've never really dared before, except with an instructor, or even - OMG - a Ski Club rep (in whom I've probably put my trust too blindly anyway.) I was thinking that my caution had been a bit extreme, but perhaps not...
Richard_Sideways, thanks. Yes, tree wells are something I'm conscious of, but that's kind of easy to assess - if in doubt, a tree might have a tree-well around it. It's the assessment of slopes I'm more vague about.
It seems there are no short cuts to this knowledge, I need to read more about it all and perhaps go to a Henry's avalanche talk somewhere. Maybe I shouldn't have posted such a stupid question. Sorry.
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Poster: A snowHead
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97% of slides occur on slopes of 30 degrees and over, so on Ava risk 3 or more, stay off slopes (or parts of slopes) that are this steep or greater.
A huge percentage of slides occur on slopes of 35-37 degrees, so anyone who skis that angle slope on days with an Ava risk of 3+ is just plain stupid IMHO.
So KISS and ski safely.
p.s. if you don't know what a 30 degree hill looks like, buy/borrow/beg or steal an inclinometer, or ask the pisteurs and get a feel for whats steep and how steep.
p.p.s. loads of good ava safety info on pistehors.com
p.p.p.s personal choice re ski routes but yes I would ski them (conditions dependent of course)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| Are you referring to the post just above? |
Yes. It seemed to assume that there was a higher degree of safety if you are closer to the piste. Everything I've read and been taught about off-piste safety seems to suggest that you can not, and should not, make that assumption.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| It seems there are no short cuts to this knowledge, I need to read more about it all and perhaps go to a Henry's avalanche talk somewhere. Maybe I shouldn't have posted such a stupid question. Sorry. |
I don't think there are any shortcuts to snowpack knowledge, but I don't think it was a stupid question. The more people who pause to think before they head off piste the fewer fatalities there are likely to be. There is a good range of info out there to look at (PisteHors, HAT, several published books, for example) so plenty of opportunity to begin to develop some useful knowledge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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clarky999, I wondered the same thing about Austrian ski routes last week in the Arlberg.
The official line is something like "Avalanche controlled in the *immediate vicinity*" of ski route markers.
The ski routes I did in Lech had closely spaced markers on both sides, like a piste, which I interpreted as a clear avi controlled channel. In St. Anton, the ski routes appeared to all be a single line of markers, much more widely spaced - i.e. it wasn't clear how far you could safely go wide of the markers, or even whether a direct marker to marker route would be safe. I reluctantly didn't chance it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Do you mean the un-pisted runs marked with a dotted-line on the resort maps?
I tried a couple of these last week when I was in Zell am See ... but apart from being un-groomed I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that they were the same as the other marked pistes (and, from memory, no further detail was given on the piste-map).
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Yep. They are called ski routes or itineraries, and are defined as being marked, avalanche controlled, ungroomed and not patrolled. They can be closed and opened like pistes, but I don't think they ever put a net across to close it, just mention it on the usual 'what pistes are open' boards.
Again on a similar take, any offpiste which leads down onto a piste should *in theory* be safe form sliding, otherwise the piste would be closed? Yet we know this is not always the case...
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Hurtle, not at all stupid, and there are more things than avalanches and tree wells to consider - the infamous "Flaine holes" for example.
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Yoda, oh yes, I've heard about them. Never been to Flaine, though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| horgand wrote: |
| 97% of slides occur on slopes of 30 degrees and over, so on Ava risk 3 or more, stay off slopes (or parts of slopes) that are this steep or greater. |
I would only add that you might not want to be below a slope of that degree either.
I've just read two books:
Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain by Bruce Tremper
Snowstruck by Jill Fredston
Interesting reading. Highly recommended.
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One good bit of kit to take - I think some research shows - is a woman. Human factors and all that. Dilute the testosterone and go-for-it-itis.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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What are the Flaine Holes? Crevasses or something?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother, doesn't always work. I was skiing with my bro-in-law a while back and he totally ignored my bleating. So I followed him. 
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ami in berlin, snowstruck is a cracking book isn't it? The tales of the snowmobilers were espescially moving.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hurtle, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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clarky999, potholes and crevasses in the rock. Have claimed several lives.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, I've subscribed to the online versions of HAT, see here http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/
You can watch the first part free and then decide if you want to subscribe. I found them very informative.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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geepee, thanks, that sounds like a top idea.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| One good bit of kit to take - I think some research shows - is a woman. Human factors and all that. Dilute the testosterone and go-for-it-itis. |
= go-for-i-tit-is
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| One good bit of kit to take - I think some research shows - is a woman. Human factors and all that. Dilute the testosterone and go-for-it-itis. |
= go-for-i-tit-is |
laundryman, but you is not a tit!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle, I seem to recall a couple of guys being taken by an avalanche when on a drag lift in VT about 5 years ago , so nowhere is safe
I do not see any reference above to North or South facing slopes, which seems to be a bit of a factor in deciding whether to pop off a piste
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rayscoops, That kindof depends on the local recent weather conditions.
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clarky999, is one safer than the other on a sunny day after a fresh dump in spring in Chamonix, for example ?
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Wasn't there a discussion in the past about a ski club and it's guides only allowing members to ski a little off piste?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, where I went off-piste last week had a gentle-ish red on one side, blue on the other, was underneath the chair lift and a red running along the bottom. No slope above. It was a pretty gentle slope - where we went with ItS was far tougher! I also did other little bits just running from one piste to another, again with nothing above. Not saying it was completely safe but with my limited knowledge I reckoned was relatively low down on the risk scales. Seemed to me the whole of Lech gets skiied out when fresh snow comes.
Hmmm - ski routes. Or itinerants as the Ski Total host insisted on calling them....... I did a few of them in Lech, for example you can only do the White Ring if you do, which I think is pretty bizarre. However, some are definitely groomed as we were on a freshly groomed one. Some have SOS huts on them from where you can call for help & are marked on the piste map. I didn't do any black-lined ski routes - they looked tricky!
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Boredsurfing, naughty little stirrer... 
rayscoops, depends on prevailing wind directions plus so many other things doesn't it really.
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