 Poster: A snowHead
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Tonight on BBC 1 22.35, 2305 N Ire
Olympic sprinting legend Michael Johnson moves from track to piste to discover what makes downhill skiers risk their lives in pursuit of sporting glory.
Hurtling down a mountain at up to 80mph with minimal protection is something that most people would consider an act of madness, so Michael sets out to discover why these athletes so enjoy what they do, and how they deal with the risks involved and the crashes that inevitably happen.
Talking to some of the biggest names in the sport, such as skiing greats Franz Klammer and Hermann Maier, as well as experts from the world of psychology and neurology, he aims to discover just what makes downhill skiers tick.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qtrjv
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cheers for the heads up. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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hope the interweb is working properly tonight. that looks like an iplayer must
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am really interested on what the skiers say, especially after having set off from here recently
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Awesome programme
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It was a bit like watching an airplane crash movie before an transatlantic flight - you know you shouldn't be watching it but you can't help it! Amazing insight into the mind of a racer though - pretty cool programme - defo look it up on iplayer if you missed it.
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Have to agree - it wont stop the speed but just maybe I can better understand why I like it so much. Great programme!!
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good prog
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not bad.
The scary thing for me was that in the 2 cases where the skiers suffered head injury their helmets came off during the crash. The FIS REALLY need to look at that. What's the point of wearing helmets if they become detached during the accident. The mitigating factor is that in the second case it came off in the netting, but even so, not good.
I watch a lot of motorcycle racing. I've never seen a bike racer crash and loose their crash helmet.
I remember watching live the race where the swiss racer crashed. An awful accident, which I thought at the time was preventable.
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david@mediacopy, do you know if that video is available anywhere? I would have been very interested to see it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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imull, just found that it's not on iplayer. Need to set the video for Saturday at 1pm on BBC1.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Did I just type "video"? Hee hee, and I'm only 41!!!!
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sproggski, I m 43; WTF is a iplayer????????????? Age is relative anyway 
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You know it makes sense.
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DAB, iplayer. You might not be able to watch it in foreign lands... on demand programs from the BBC.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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arv, oh thank you! I will try and work it out! Bit of a pillock when it comes to technology 
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Poster: A snowHead
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DAB, I tired (and failed) to watch it when I was away last year. BBC news content didn't work either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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arv, Well thanks for nothing then 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
The scary thing for me was that in the 2 cases where the skiers suffered head injury their helmets came off during the crash. The FIS REALLY need to look at that. What's the point of wearing helmets if they become detached during the accident. The mitigating factor is that in the second case it came off in the netting, but even so, not good.
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Ski helmets are designed too break during big impacts. This allows more of the force of impact to be absorbed, prolonging the time period of impact which in turn decreases the rate of acceleration. This means that the brain won't be slammed into the side of the skull so hard, hopefully reducing/preventing brain damage/etc.
In Scott McCartney's crash it looked to me like the side of the helmet came off (inc buckle?) Which coul;d have meant the helmet was no longer attached to his head. It did seem to do it's job though!
No idea what happened when the helmet came off in the netting though, that looked dodgy, maybe failure of the retension system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It seemed to me rather in the nature of a (mild) snuff movie - focussing as it did on injuries and showing the terrible crashes over and over again. Interesting in part and I was particularly glad to have seen the interview with the guy who was paralysed, an incredibly impressive person, but overall I didn't like the particularly ghoulish slant .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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No mention of female downhillers either. They are hitting the kind of speeds that the men used to and hitting the netting at 80mph doesn't half make the mascara run.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The programme was superb. I had forgotten about Herman Maier coming back from his massive crash to win the GS 3 days later, a feat worthy of the Olympic gold. The crash that broke that chap's back (can't remember his name) was horrendous. He went through the netting at 70mph and hit the rocks the other side. The Xray and scans of his spine were very sobering.
The whole programme showed that downhill is a sport that needs enormous skill and a total re-balance of the minds normal risk assessment process. Excellent TV (not on iPlayer yet).
| clarky999 wrote: |
Ski helmets are designed too break during big impacts. This allows more of the force of impact to be absorbed, prolonging the time period of impact which in turn decreases the rate of acceleration. This means that the brain won't be slammed into the side of the skull so hard, hopefully reducing/preventing brain damage/etc. |
This is a common myth.
The purpose of a helmet shell is two fold. 1) To hold the impact absorbing padding in place during a crash. 2) to spread the load of point impacts over as wide an area as possible.
If the shell fails, the padding can no longer do its job of absorbing impact and your head is then taking all the impact directly against your skull.
Building site hard hats are designed to fail on impact but their construction is completely different. They are only to protect against point load impacts and they have no padding, just a shell. A MTB helmet is just the padding and is designed to protect for one impact only. At the other end of the scale are motorbike helmets which have enormous amounts of multi density padding.
The limitations of weight, freedom of movement and of cost have meant skiing helmets have ended up where they are, somewhere in the middle of all of these. The polycarbonate shell will contain the padding in an impact against a piste and will continue to do so during a typical multi contact cycle of a skier crashing. It will not survive a long abrasion contact (biker down the road) and it will not protect fully against a one off massive impact (head hits tree at speed). That said, they are good for protecting recreational skiers.
If the helmet shell were to break, the impact would be beyond the ability of the padding to absorb and serious/fatal injury would be incurred.
With regards to helmets coming off, I suspect that strap design has improved (mine has a Y each side that holds the under chin section in place) but the straps are no where near as good as my car race or flying helmets. Whilst these other helmets offer much higher levels of protection, the restrictions on movement due to weight would make an accident more likely.
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clarky999,
| Quote: |
| Ski helmets are designed too break during big impacts. This allows more of the force of impact to be absorbed, prolonging the time period of impact which in turn decreases the rate of acceleration. |
I think that principle follows in most crash helmet design, hence the recommendation that if it suffers an impact you should look at replacing it. ( I say this as a motorcyclist, but I'm not sure the advice is the same for skiing ?)
I'd say that the footage last night hints that if the racers are using 'standard' ski crash helmets for downhill (and maybe Super G) then the helmets are probably being asked to cope with forces outside of their design parameters, given the speed of the events.
The 'Netting' problem is a tricky one. Had the guys helmet not come off there must be the possibility that the twisting forces on the neck would have caused serious injuries.
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mightn't the chinstraps be designed to fail under certain circumstances? eg better for the strap to snap and the helmet come off than for the helmet to catch on something and break your neck or strangle you?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, That would make sense. I do wonder about netting as the best way of slowing skiers, particularly with the possibility of leg injuries where the ski has not detached. I wonder if they have looked at the inflatable crash barriers that are available.
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In the case of Scott McCartney's helmet there are to my knowledge 2 pertinent facts:
- the POC helmets are designed to break on extreme impact as part of their load spreading mechanism. It looks scary, but that's what POC is designing them to do.
- the chinstrap broke loose. This was not by design and POC have apparently admitted and addressed the issue.
Scott expressed full confidence in POC after the fall, and gave the helmet credit for protecting him in the crucial part of the fall. You'd think he'd kick them into touch if he was in any way worried about the product.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think its worth remembering that downhill racers will not be wearing a helmet they bought in S+R. Their helmets are far more like an open face version of a carbon fibre motorbike race helmet, with multi density padding, but all very, very light weight.
The helmet should never come off, but the design should be one that means it cannot easily snag on anything.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| - the POC helmets are designed to break on extreme impact as part of their load spreading mechanism. It looks scary, but that's what POC is designing them to do. |
Not as scary as the prospect of the now unprotected head coming into contact with the piste as the skier slows.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| - the POC helmets are designed to break on extreme impact as part of their load spreading mechanism. It looks scary, but that's what POC is designing them to do. |
Not as scary as the prospect of the now unprotected head coming into contact with the piste as the skier slows. |
Or yet more rocks.
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You know it makes sense.
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bar shaker, while there are some rules about the helmets racers use (no vents etc) they don't differ much from normal consumer-oriented ski helmets, and one can get racing helmets in retail stores. I'm pretty sure S+R used to sell the Scott DH helmet that some of my friends raced downhill in, and the POC importer sells the same Skull Comp helmet used by McCartney, Mancuso, Vonn, (rob@rar ) etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bar shaker,
| Quote: |
This is a common myth.
The purpose of a helmet shell is two fold. 1) To hold the impact absorbing padding in place during a crash. 2) to spread the load of point impacts over as wide an area as possible.
If the shell fails, the padding can no longer do its job of absorbing impact and your head is then taking all the impact directly against your skull.
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I suggest that you take a look at the technology on the Sqweet Protection site.
The shell prevents penetration and spreads impact around the helmet. The crushable foam liner absorbs the impact. In the even of enough orce being applied, both will break to absorb as much force as poss.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| - the POC helmets are designed to break on extreme impact as part of their load spreading mechanism. It looks scary, but that's what POC is designing them to do. |
Not as scary as the prospect of the now unprotected head coming into contact with the piste as the skier slows. |
Or yet more rocks. |
Good points...
I have no affiliation with POC, and their prices scare me , but I do believe they take skier safety extremely seriously and they believe 100% that they are building a better product. Whether that translates to improved safety out there in the wild I couldn't say. Hopefully nobody I know will ever have to find out.
I'm assuming that the entire helmet is not intended to split completely in two and/or leave the skiers head. The outer shell cracks and deforms slowing the deceleration of the head/brain inside the brainbucket. Considering Scott ended up with only mild concussion from that fall the helmet did what it had to do before parting company with him. I don't believe any of the other current designs would have done better. But talking about POC and *that crash* is a bit can-o-worms. And no, the chin strap definitely should not have snapped!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| clarky999 wrote: |
bar shaker,
| Quote: |
This is a common myth.
The purpose of a helmet shell is two fold. 1) To hold the impact absorbing padding in place during a crash. 2) to spread the load of point impacts over as wide an area as possible.
If the shell fails, the padding can no longer do its job of absorbing impact and your head is then taking all the impact directly against your skull.
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I suggest that you take a look at the technology on the Sqweet Protection site.
The shell prevents penetration and spreads impact around the helmet. The crushable foam liner absorbs the impact. |
That's exactly what I said.
| clarky999 wrote: |
| In the even of enough orce being applied, both will break to absorb as much force as poss. |
In the event of enough force being applied, the shell will break and so will your head. Its got nothing to do with absorbing as much force as possible. An impact force can exceed the strength of the shell and that's it. When this happens, the shell will no longer contain the inner padding and the helmet's integrity will have been breached.
Talk of helmet shells failing to help absorb impact is something for coroners to debate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In the two skiers shown whose helmets dislodged and came off their heads, it was probably a good thing, especially the one that snagged in the safety netting because the helmet strap could well of strangled him if it hadn't come off.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Its interesting how tv priorities have changed. The Maiers, Klammers and Zurbrigens and Giradellis of this world were heroes that everyone talked about in the office on a Monday morning. Now that selling junk from your loft is considered better entertainment, nobody knows who today's ski heroes are.
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Enjoyed the programme, I'm glad there are scared also as after sampling the Streif, I went away wonderng how they could possibily point there skis straight down the fall line, as it's so steep in places. My pic below shows the final section of the course and the final jump, it appeared noticeably smaller this year.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Hurtle wrote: |
| It seemed to me rather in the nature of a (mild) snuff movie - focussing as it did on injuries and showing the terrible crashes over and over again. Interesting in part and I was particularly glad to have seen the interview with the guy who was paralysed, an incredibly impressive person, but overall I didn't like the particularly ghoulish slant . |
Totally agreed. It spent almost the entire film dealing with the injuries and psychological and physical effects of accidents, replaying the same crashes repeatedly. It said very little about the skills, triumphs and motivations, and it would have been good to see the presenter try at least one chunk of a run. It would also be nice to see something looking at preparation by the racers, of kit etc
Nice to see some coverage, but it could have been way better.
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stoatsbrother, the programme was only 30 minutes, only Ski Sunday would try and jam so many things into such a small time slot.
Maybe there'll be more episodes!
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FAQ
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But they're just as likely to talk about XC skiing, speed skating, biathlon, ice hockey, ski jumping or something else cold and wintery. And if they mention alpine skiing they know I won't shut up for the next couple of hours 