 Poster: A snowHead
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OK, all... here is my problem.
After going on a spyderjon ski tuning course, my skis were like razors.
For the next couple of trips I didn't bother with the file, just the diamond stones and they seemed to stay sharp. However, for this trip (I leave on Saturday) the edges seems quite blunt so i thought i'd give them a file.
As far as i can remember (I've also been looking back at the tutorials), I am doing it right. Moving in the one direction, right amount of pressure etc etc - but i just don't seem able to get them as sharp as i did last time.
Is there an obvious beginners error that would cause them to not sharpen up as much? Not enough pressure?
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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do you need to remove some of the side wall? the sidewall can prevent you getting the right angle and therefore not help with the sharpness???!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alexchapman, should be OK - they are the same skis that we used for the spyderjon session. So the sidewall has been well and truly removed
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Moving in one direction? It's not going to be your mistake, but why would you do that when filing?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| magic_hat wrote: |
Is there an obvious beginners error that would cause them to not sharpen up as much? Not enough pressure?
Cheers |
a) Which guide are you using? Can the file be repositioned within the guide so as to have more than one cutting angle?
If you are using a guide like this:
http://www.ski-racing.com/images/side_beast1.jpg
the file can be repositioned at several angles within the guide, _without changing the bevel_.
Only one of those angles will be best for cutting into edges.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Vorda wrote: |
| Moving in one direction? It's not going to be your mistake, but why would you do that when filing? |
Because a metal file only cuts in one direction.
magic_hat, for the above reason, have you got the file the correct way round in/on your guide?
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File should be positioned like this. Or if you have a Moonflex Minituner guide then it's 70mm file has a direction arrow on it.
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If you have more than one side edge guide are you using the right one for the ski, ie if you're using a steeper angle guide than the ski's current angle then you'll only be removing material from the 'top' of the side edge & the sharpening cuts once take affect until the side edge has been fully reset to the new angle.
Have you tried blacking up the edge (marker pen) so you can see were the metal is being removed from?
Other suggestions:
Sidewall's catching as said above which is usually the most common
File is clogged - cleaning with a wire brush
File is blunt usually cause an alu-oxide not been used first to deburr the edge
The edge has case hardened a tad through use &/or is slightly burred. Try a few good passes with an alu-oxide stone before filing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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spyderjon, this might be a dumb question but on skis that have a titanium top sheet does this layer (that sits just above the edge) cause any trouble?. I seem to remember titanium is pretty soft but i have gotten into the habit of taking the thin top sheet layer back with the sidewall cutter and then filing the edges. When i used to just use diamonds to sharpen the top sheet layer always seemed to be pround of the edge and i didnt feel like i was getting at the edge itself.
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spyderjon, how easy do chrome files blunt? i started using a panzer file to make a first pass (after stoning/deburring) on skis that have a lot of rock damage to get a decent edge to start with. Is this a bad idea? i takes a fair wack of edge off but seems to give me a better final edge. the panzer just feels so much stiffer and straighter than the chrome file like in your photo above. ( excellent illustration by the way)
a few other questions that have been bugging me. my biggest problem with tuning seems to be base edges. I know everyone says never to touch em after stone grinding but after lots of scratches and base damage with visible scores in the base edge i end up with a "serrated" knife feeling after doing the side edges. do you try to stone out and cuts in base edge or is the only option a stone grind and start fresh? i seem to remember reading on epic that base edges wear and round off and if you start with say a 0.5 degree and ski a lot of ice/agressive snow they round off and dull within a few weeks of skiing to a 1 or 2 degree angle. this kinda makes sense to me but what are your thoughts? I have a zero on my SL skis and they hook up very quickly but my old magnums that have a few weeks on em feel very sloppy now.
sorry for all the questions but after a year of tuning i feel like i am just now starting to do it right but still not as getting as good an edge as some racers skis i see.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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magic_hat, why use the file? To keep 'em sharp you just need the stones; unless you're getting rid of a bit of damage or resetting the edges.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| but my old magnums that have a few weeks on em feel very sloppy now. |
*cough* try the metal scraper and rail the skis just a bit before you diamond? *cough*
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| spyderjon, this might be a dumb question but on skis that have a titanium top sheet does this layer (that sits just above the edge) cause any trouble?. I seem to remember titanium is pretty soft but i have gotten into the habit of taking the thin top sheet layer back with the sidewall cutter and then filing the edges. When i used to just use diamonds to sharpen the top sheet layer always seemed to be pround of the edge and i didnt feel like i was getting at the edge itself. |
Agreed. Your way will work fine although I use the 'backfiling' technique to trim back that type of the metal sheet - ie use a 7 degree side edge guide (it's cheaper to just shim up your exisiting guide) & a milled file for a few passes to chamfer the metal away. Because the guide is at such a steep angle it misses most of the side edge which can then be got at in the conventional way.
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You know it makes sense.
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All - thanks once again for the help and suggestions.
I have to be up in 4 hours to get on a flight to Les Deuz Alpes, so have to be quick...
In answer to some of the questions and suggestions above:
I have the Moonflex minituner and the file with the great big arrow on it - i was moving in the direction of the arrow!
The file didn't seem clogged, but i gave it a clean anyway.
Anyhow - all is now sorted and I am off to LDA with razor sharp edges again!
Basically, I started again. Re-read spyderjon's guides and went back to basics.
I had another couple of passes with the alu-oxide stone. And then had another couple of sweeps with the file. Pushing ever so slightly harder (i think i was being a bit girly with my earlier attempt).
Sharpened with the stones - all sorted.
In short, I think i was doing things right, but just not right enough
Will try and keep them sharp this time with more regular stoning !!
Cheers All - Much appreciated.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| spyderjon, how easy do chrome files blunt? i started using a panzer file to make a first pass (after stoning/deburring) on skis that have a lot of rock damage to get a decent edge to start with. Is this a bad idea? i takes a fair wack of edge off but seems to give me a better final edge. the panzer just feels so much stiffer and straighter than the chrome file like in your photo above. ( excellent illustration by the way). |
No harm in that. Even a few passes with a milled/panzer is a lot less metal removal than a machine tune.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| a few other questions that have been bugging me. my biggest problem with tuning seems to be base edges. I know everyone says never to touch em after stone grinding but after lots of scratches and base damage with visible scores in the base edge i end up with a "serrated" knife feeling after doing the side edges. do you try to stone out and cuts in base edge or is the only option a stone grind and start fresh? i seem to remember reading on epic that base edges wear and round off and if you start with say a 0.5 degree and ski a lot of ice/agressive snow they round off and dull within a few weeks of skiing to a 1 or 2 degree angle. this kinda makes sense to me but what are your thoughts? I have a zero on my SL skis and they hook up very quickly but my old magnums that have a few weeks on em feel very sloppy now....... |
I alu-oxide base edges to deburr & then (maybe) give 'em a light polish with diamond a file(s) but I don't touch 'em with a metal file. Removing the hanging burr with a gummi stone after tuning the side edge is also effectively give the base edge a sneaky polish at the same time. You can't add metal to the base edge so the only you can fully remove any serious damage is to grind the ski/base edge flat & then reset it. After grinding I'm a fan of resetting base edges slightly shallower (for better skiers) to give them some tuning capacity to remove dings without over bevelling the base edge.
I often find the factory base edge angle to be greater than it should be, ie 1 degree base edges are often 1.25-1.5. A true 1 degree base is surprisingly tight. But flat base edges eh - I walk in your shadow oh great one
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Poster: A snowHead
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With a file you do need to press down a bit to get the teeth to bite. And files do clog up easily.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| comprex wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| but my old magnums that have a few weeks on em feel very sloppy now. |
*cough* try the metal scraper and rail the skis just a bit before you diamond? *cough* |
fair point and when i looked at em they were a tad base high
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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spyderjon, i had a spare 2 deg side guide that i have modified with a shim to give a deeper cut and used that to take back the side wall with a panzer file, worked real well thanks for the tip...
on the 0 base angles i got some sl skis off a good guy and he had em flat so i left em at zero for grins, they are real nice in the dome but havent had em out on the hill yet. very scary when they hook up, even indoors i got high sided and flipped once...
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