 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on a comment on the SSGB thread about someone saying that ski racing technological developments benefit recreational skiers. I have to say i whole heartedly disagree with this sentiment. Since the mid 90's i'd concede that alpine racing has given recreational skiing the parabolic ski & to a lesser extent popularised the use of shorter skis. Big developments i'll give you but both of which are well in excess of 10 years old.
I cannot think of any other developments ski racing has given us to current recreational skiing. Anyone care to argue the case on this?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frequently in my BASI training and in coaching with ski schools like Snoworks the Trainers have referred to current race technique as the foundation for what we are taught, what we should be teaching.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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frank4short, Parabolic skis were not used in racing until quite a while after they had been used for recreational skiing. I'm a racer but I would give more credit to snowboarding for showing that you could make something wider that was torsionally stiff but able to flex along its length.
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I'd argue that it was snowboarding gave the world sidecut skis and IIRC it was Bode Miller among others skiing at junior level on K2 4 punter skis that indicated to the racing world that shaped skis might be the way forward.
Racing has given us essentially fat GS big mountain skis and no doubt SL ski has infuenced detuned high end piste skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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frank4short, the example you've given is - interestingly - debatable. I was the equipment editor of a ski magazine at the time (1992) the parabolic ski emerged in prototype form. Initially this was at the ispo - Munich - sports trade fair, where new ski equipment is primarily launched.
Kneissl and Elan developed the first parabolic skis. Elan's research included racer input. Kneissl was more focused on the recreational market. The Kneissl Ergo and Elan SCX - the first short radical-sidecut skis - were initally marketed to recreational skiers, and were not initially used on racecourses.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| frank4short wrote: |
| Since the mid 90's i'd concede that alpine racing has given recreational skiing the parabolic ski & to a lesser extent popularised the use of shorter skis. Big developments i'll give you but both of which are well in excess of 10 years old. |
Experts, such as Eric Deslauriers would disagree with even that. He says that alpine racing held back the development of wider, shaped skis and it wasn't until snowboarding took off in Europe in the last 80s that ski designers over here started to think out of the downhill ski mould.
Basically a whole generation who could have benefitted from wider, shaped skis (they did exist - such as the 72mm Rossignol Haute-Route) had their enjoyment of skiing blighted by ski racing.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 26-01-10 16:59; edited 1 time in total
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OK, so that further proves my point. Parabolic skis as we know them pretty much emerged to suit the recreational market & were then adopted by racing circuit.
As to the point about big mountain skis coming from GS skis i disagree with this point. I believe this type of ski developed initially as a result of as others have noted snowboarding & latter as a result of some pioneering free skiers like Shane McConkey who had access to manufacturers who were prepared to go out on a limb in trying some of his & others ideas.
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frank4short, it was me that made the comment on another thread. There are tons of things that have been developed for racing that have found their way onto recreational equipment. Without racing many things would either not have been developed or would have taken far longer to come to market. Wax, base preparation techniques, bases, edges and their preparation, materials (eg for dampening, torsional rigidity, rebound etc), sidecuts and cambers, shock-absorbtion in bindings, riser plates, boot lasts and construction (why do you think rear entry died), boot fitting (ask CEM - over the years he's picked up loads of good stuff from World Cup boot tecnicians), boot plastics, boot liners and foot beds, booster straps, that little deflector by your front clip, pole articulation etc etc I could go on if I tried.
Then there's technique (already touched upon). When I started out as an instructor we all skiied like identical christmas trees (we had to to pass exams). Then some bright spark closely analysed frame by frame the stance and movements of world cup racers and viola, we all saw the light. Now everything is much more fluid and natural and teachers are teaching it that way.
Perhaps I should have said "competition" skiers rather than just racers but more developments have come from ski racing than any other area. Period.
Hell it's the same with cars (because there always MUST be a car analogy)... so I won't bother.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
Hell it's the same with cars (because there always MUST be a car analogy)... so I won't bother. |
Fashion industry too.
The thin end of the wedge has a massive influence on the masses, whether they are consciously aware of it or not.
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I'm with the camp that says that racing has held back skiingfor at least the last twenty years. Clearing out our ski cupboard the other night the differences between a pair of Salomon Equipe GS skis from the nineties and the modern fat skis I ski today were laughable. Stupid skinny, stupid straight, stupid long... all the traits of old school race skis.
Racing also held up boot development in my opinion, being welded to an outdated notion of discomfort as fit. Sure, we got used to it, or at least I did (Lange Z series anyone..?) but it definitely took snowboarding and the perceived decline in the ski market through the nineties to shake out a lot of outdated thinking.
I too did instructor training in the eighties, and its laughable how rigid the thinking there was as well. Sure, that was not directly the fault of racing, but it had an influence as the race technique was held up as the pinnacle.
Don't get me wrong, I still like getting my more recent GS boards out and ripping it up every now and again, but I have a hell of a lot more fun in soft snow and on my big fat Rossi Ravyns.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, The bulk of the examples you've provided are well in excess of 20 years old. The point is that may have been the case then but it certainly isn't the case now.
Whereas one could argue that there are a few, though not as many as you think, examples of recent car racing technologies that have been adapted by the domestic car industry. I don't think the same could be said for skiing. I believe the vast majority of recent developments in skiing technology have come from the freeride markets. With the exception of technologies advanced by the mainstream manufacturers that have enabled them to make cheaper skis. Essentially though ski construction techniques have remained the same for the last 20 years. Any other developments ski manufacturers have lauded are mostly window dressing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Frequently in my BASI training and in coaching with ski schools like Snoworks the Trainers have referred to current race technique as the foundation for what we are taught, what we should be teaching. |
I suspect that this has a lot to do with Instructor training, and the focus on race training to pass the speed test.
It's arguable that nations with a more 'off piste' culture may approach the problem from a different viewpoint, hence the classic feet together French \ Italian style - not sure if that's still actively taught though - and their Instructors all have a strong race background.
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| frank4short wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, The bulk of the examples you've provided are well in excess of 20 years old. |
Evolution francis4long, haven't you heard of it? Continual tweaking and experimenting performed by ski technicians leads to better recreational products. Been to ski and boot and binding factories, seen it in action. Freeride folks do the same and aren't constrained by FIS rules but you can't test equipment in mid air or upside down.
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You know it makes sense.
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| frank4short wrote: |
Bode Swiller, The bulk of the examples you've provided are well in excess of 20 years old. The point is that may have been the case then but it certainly isn't the case now.
Whereas one could argue that there are a few, though not as many as you think, examples of recent car racing technologies that have been adapted by the domestic car industry. I don't think the same could be said for skiing. I believe the vast majority of recent developments in skiing technology have come from the free-ride markets. With the exception of technologies advanced by the mainstream manufacturers that have enabled them to make cheaper skis. Essentially though ski construction techniques have remained the same for the last 20 years. Any other developments ski manufacturers have lauded are mostly window dressing. |
and the free-ride markets are really just an extension of the recreational market, where the techniques come from change in the professional fields passed down from race coaches to ski instructors , and it doesn't matter if this takes years to filter down to the masses, if we dont aspire to compete at a world level in any sport , that would be a tragedy .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| [Without racing many things would either not have been developed or would have taken far longer to come to market. Wax, base preparation techniques, bases, edges and their preparation, materials (eg for dampening, torsional rigidity, rebound etc), sidecuts and cambers, shock-absorbtion in bindings, riser plates, boot lasts and construction (why do you think rear entry died), boot fitting (ask CEM - over the years he's picked up loads of good stuff from World Cup boot tecnicians), boot plastics, boot liners and foot beds, booster straps, that little deflector by your front clip, pole articulation etc etc I could go on if I tried. |
Nail on the head. Also as Fatbob(yes Fatbob I am agreeing with you) said a lot of ideas came from snowboarding and this is still happening, rocker tips and tails(Kessler, SG, Apex, etc) (not to be confused with reverse camber which is stupid idea apart from a couple of applications). The same is also true the other way around, i.e. riser plates. Alpine snowboarding is going mad for them, Vist(ski company) make a good one. Racing definately makes a differance be it ski or snowboard. I ride race/alpine boards and the modern boards whose pedigree comes from Kessler are on a whole different planet from previous equipment. Palmer are now making skis and the tech for them comes from Kessler. Kessler also make skis and if I am not mistaken Atomic bought some equipment/tech from Hans jurgen Kessler to improve their race skis. PS I do not ride a Kessler board, I ride SG and Atomic, but my skis are Fischer!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Neilski wrote: |
and the free-ride markets are really just an extension of the recreational market, where the techniques come from change in the professional fields passed down from race coaches to ski instructors |
You're kidding right? Do you think current steep skiing or powder techniques evolved out of race technique? Techniques & equipment evolve to suit specific situations. It's a myth propogated by racers & the racing community to make themselves feel better.
YES racing has given recreational skiing, scratch that the skiing community in general massive benefits in technique & equipment. BUT the vast majority of these are well in the past. Most modern improvements in equipment & technique are coming from other areas. If anything the racing community has been consistently taking ideas from other areas of skiing in the more recent past.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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[quote="frank4short"]
| Neilski wrote: |
and the free-ride markets are really just an extension of the recreational market, where the techniques come from change in the professional fields passed down from race coaches to ski instructors |
You're kidding right? Do you think current steep skiing or powder techniques evolved out of race technique? Techniques & equipment evolve to suit specific situations. It's a myth propogated by racers & the racing community to make themselves feel better.
"albert tomba" two footed skiing technique hwlps me off piste
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Neilski, So you use a racing derived technique off piste ergo off piste technique is racing derived?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| frank4short wrote: |
| Neilski wrote: |
and the free-ride markets are really just an extension of the recreational market, where the techniques come from change in the professional fields passed down from race coaches to ski instructors |
You're kidding right? Do you think current steep skiing or powder techniques evolved out of race technique? Techniques & equipment evolve to suit specific situations. It's a myth propogated by racers & the racing community to make themselves feel better.
YES racing has given recreational skiing, scratch that the skiing community in general massive benefits in technique & equipment. BUT the vast majority of these are well in the past. Most modern improvements in equipment & technique are coming from other areas. If anything the racing community has been consistently taking ideas from other areas of skiing in the more recent past. |
When watching the free ride movies, it's pretty obvious which skiers have a race background and those that don't.
Search out footage of Jeremy Nobis and I think you'll find that his racing pedigree and technique has been hugely influential in the free ride arena.
To my eyes (and I'm sure they'll be damned shortly  ) a growing number of younger freeriders are succeeding as a consequence of inate athletic ability and a large platform underneath their feet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mike Pow,
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| When watching the free ride movies, it's pretty obvious which skiers have a race background and those that don't. |
yep. very much so. Or, have trained bumps.
frank4short,
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| a myth propogated by racers & the racing community to make themselves feel better |
You are having a laugh.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lets talk about the space race for a moment and the moon landings
You could easily say that a pile of moon rocks and a few photos has not done anything for you
but.....
Would you be still scraping your burnt on food from frying pan or trying to see this through scratched eyeglass lenses?
Or a bit more of a skiing answer -
Zipping up your lightweight gore-tex jacket and securing it with velcro flaps
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