 Poster: A snowHead
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Would like to hear from parents of young kids (under 7) as to what they are looking for (for the their kids) whilst on a ski holiday. Ski class, ski crèche, baby sitting, snacks included, supervision, CRB checks, etc, etc.
Had a number of requests from parents of young children (6 and under) for 2011.
Normally not a problem as we tend to group small kids of this age into a separate class. But for some dates for 2011 we may not have enough people in school to be able to create a specific 6 and under class.
Have looked at the idea of a ski crèche but this would only work if all the kids were of the same skiing ability – ie. you can’t put kids who have never skied with others who have skied for a few weeks.
I fully understand that parents will want their kids to learn to ski but it’s not really fair on other (maybe adult) members of the class to have (for example) a group of 4 year olds and we will want to be able to offer younger children to opportunity to learn to ski in the right environment.
We have on previous years been able to mix-n-match with other UK TO’s in resort but this won’t be possible next year as all the other UK TO’s (to our resort) either have gone bust or have stopped coming here. This year it isn’t a problem due to the large numbers in classes; so it’s been possible to create specific class for this age group.
Just trying to see a “possible” future problem and create a method of dealing with it before it happens and trying to keep everyone happy (ma è sempre un grande problema  )
Aslo, any ideas would be helpful as to what happens in other resorts and ski schools from people who work there.
Many thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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e un po difficile ma....
What follows is based on using excellent kids ski school programs in North America.
Kids aged upto 6 will need to spend some of the day indoors in a warm environment with toys, drawing stuff and people with the skills to amuse them - not bored seasonnaires. You can get round the difference in standards by taking 2 different groups out at different times. For beginner kids aged 3-4, often 2 x 1hr a day on the snow may be enough. Given the excellent language skills of many young Italians - aren't there local options for that?
Adults and under 12s in a ski class, other than in a single standard single family group, do not mix IMHO, and that would be unfair to both the adults and children.
If you cannot deliver on a proper structured program on certain dates, you will I am sure be letting people know before they book.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother e un po difficile ma (possiamo farli, se proviamo  )
Just looking for feedback really, so thanks for that.
We "do" have the option of using some locals (both of the girls have BASI 2) who have both asked for a season's work and our hotels have fully licensed kids clubs with (checked) and qualified staff for under 7’s.
But....
Rather than me just saying, this is it, would rather ask people what they would prefer before coming up with a number of options.
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Wayne, basically I look for exactly what ski esprit do (with the exception of 'no children at adults meal- even breast feeding babes in arms').
For the five of us - Mum , dad and 3 boys 8, 5 and 10 months they do everything right. Including getting the kids to really gel together with singing, games and the essential gunging.
I think you really need a think/talk with an experienced childcare manager. Again- in our experience of about 18-20 weeks of family ski holidays these are the people who really sort out whats needed.
When we have done DIY hols with friends then the kids under 6 have either gone into the ski garden or had a private instructor for groups of up to 5-6.
As for the rest I think your post covers everything you need!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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We have been once with Powder Byrne to Switzerland and their 4-9yrs Kids Club worked well even with children of different abilities. They offer a (British) skiing nanny to pick them up from your accomodation at 9am and take them out on the slopes along with a qualified local instructor for 2 hrs in the morning. The Nanny is there with the children to help them with their skis, pick them up after a fall, dole out hugs, wipe noses, and sort out their gloves when they fall off etc. in particular focussing on the younger more inexperienced children of the group. My 5yo daughter was in her first week (With only one taster session in a Snowdome under her belt) with another girl the same age in her 3rd week of skiing, and her older 8 yo brother who was more advanced being older. Our daughter caught up in ability by day 2 and didn't fall apart after her first fall as we thought she would thanks to the care of the Nanny. And the 8yo was still able to be stretched by the instructor.
The Nanny then supervises them at lunch, they do some indoor activities, colouring in etc. and they're taken back out on the slopes in the afternoon for some more practice with the Nanny or just mucking about building snowmen etc before bring them back to your accommodation at about 4pm.
Powder Byrne offer a separate Club for Children aged 3-4 which is similiar with the skiing Nanny care but they have less time on ski's learning and more time indoors. But i think having the Nannies with the children as well as the instructor is the key to coping with a mix of abilities.
This season we went to Italy on our own and our daughter age 6 went into a intermediate group lesson at the local ski school for 3 hrs a day from 10-1pm and was absolutely fine on her own. We picked her up at 1pm for lunch and she skied for a couple more hours with us in the afternoons.
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Kiwi, that sounds like an excellent formula - for the littlies, you definitely need the facilities to have fun indoors, if they're tired or if the weather is grim. I'm not surprised those holidays cost a lot of money. We had the grandchildren out for Christmas week and I did all that Nanny stuff (wiping noses etc, getting Lily to ski school) plus driving and cooking. I only got onto skis once, and that was to get up the chairlift with Lily and her instructor - she'd been very reluctant to go and was persuaded by my offering to ski behind them and video her. That worked..... I got v cold hands though, juggling two cameras!
If I'd needed to be paid, it would have cost a fortune!!! and if it was my only ski week of the year, I'd have wanted someone else to take on some of the work, so I could ski.
For some families, a fairly active grandparent might be a good way to do it - maybe you could offer some "grandma comes free" weeks?
I agree that mixed age groups don't work - kids and adults learn so differently.
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maybe another thing is to make it clear to parents that "mixed age/ability" children's clubs are about having some fun, having some time on snow, playing. some parents seem desperate to have their 5 year olds skiing like local kids in ski clubs - you need to do something to tone down expectations.
If they want to go somewhere with strict hierarchies, clear learning goals, agreed standards and skills etc - go to France and put them in an ESF class. 
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Our kids were born lat esummer early autumn so skiing was always at half years.
For us up to 3 1/2 we used grannys and locally booked babysitters . 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 we used the kind of crechy type ski school where they are indoors part of the time and in a snow garden with a bit of skiing from moving carpets etc. thrown in. Thereafter it was normal kids group lessons, though nowadays we go with another family and tend to book a private instructor for 3/4 days or sessions depending on price and size of area etc.
Certainly as worked pretty well form an enjoyment of skiing point of view though I don't think my kids are the most technical of skiers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ed123, Kiwi, pam w, T Bar,
Thanks for taking the time to give some feedback
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My two are 5 and 6 this year and this is the second year we have been skiing - the extra year has made a lot of difference to both of them. I wonder whether the 7 age break is the right one - I think for kids who have skied before then 6 might be a better break point?
I think whether the child has skied before is a key factor in what they need out of their supervised time - my 5 yr old found the snow garden mix of children and activities 'babyish' this year (her words) even though they went out of the garden for a chunk of their time. Her sister at 6mths older the previous year didn't have a problem with it as it was the first time she had been skies and was learning enough to not think about whether she was the oldest or not.
Personally I want a chunk of ski tuition time in the morning - we then take a break for lunch of a couple of hours and then head back out for 2-3hrs as a family in the afternoon. Neither of my two really want to be left on holiday - they are happy to have a lesson but they def seem to want some parent ski time so am not sure they would be too happy at a child-care styled set-up (but maybe this is a matter of expectations - if they had always had 2 sessions of time off in ski-school/childcare they maybe would be fine with it!).
I def don't think that the adults would want under 7s skiing with them - they are too high maintenance!! I would have thought 10 and under who have skied before would be ok together even if the little ones are 5. Guess the hard thing is to make a generalised rule as they all develop at different rates - and will have done different amounts of skiing/ quality and quantity of previous tuition. Both my two had private lessons at the dry ski slope before Xmas and did find it easy to get going as a result when we arrived away - things may have been very different if they hadn't skied at all in 10 months.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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katedenhaag, davkt,
Thanks
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You know it makes sense.
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My kids are all older than seven and ski-school is now just a memory. But with the benefit of hindsight I can now clearly see what worked and what didn't.
I enjoy my kids, so I never wanted dawn to dusk childcare. For me, I put them into classes for one purpose - to learn, as quickly as possible, to ski well enough so that they could ski with me instead of with an instructor. So I liked classes that started at 10:00 and ended at 3:00; that way they could show me their new skills each morning and evening, and I could check on their progress with the instructor. I also liked classes that could be booked by the day so that we could have a couple of days of family skiing at the end of the holiday.
I was never bothered by the age split of classes, and I couldn't care if they were in school with friends from the chalet, with their brothers or with total strangers. Instead, I was much more concerned with ability level splits. In particular, some kids are naturally more timid than others and a slow learner can really hold a class back if the grouping is predetermined for a week. IME, the best schoold rearrange classes every half-day to make sure kids are being taught at the right level.
For those reasons, I personally wouldn't have been happy with putting my kids into classes organised by a single operator unless I knew they had sufficient children to ensure classes were well-populated at all levels. Can't you link up with the the local ski school if the other UK TOs have all disappeard? Having said that, I might not be your typical customer because I found that very few European resorts could offer what I wanted. That's a big reason why our kids learned to ski almost entirely in the USA and Canada. And the North American approach to accelerated learning worked well - my kids began relishing double-black slopes when they were about 7-8 years old and the skis chools quickly became redundant.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
If they want to go somewhere with strict hierarchies, clear learning goals, agreed standards and skills etc - go to France and put them in an ESF class. Twisted Evil
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Our local ESF are actually excellent for kids of this age. There is a specific ski-school group for young kids (1st timers) aged 4-7 (called "Ourson"). All of our guests who have been through it seem to have had a good time and have been skiing well (usually faster than their parents!) by the end of the week. There's a "level 2" version called "Flocon" as well, for little kids who have skied before.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Can't you link up with the the local ski school if the other UK TOs have all disappeard? |
No problems. As I work here it's much simpler for me to do this than it would be for another TO.
I sometime teach mixed classes in English and Italian (although I'm told I sound like the Italian equivalent of Manuel from Fawlty Tower ). So we do mix our classes, sometimes. Although, this said, most people prefer to be in single language classes.
The most common cause for this being snowboarding classes, as hardly anyone takes snowboarding classes above complete beginner levels, there's not normally (even at HT) enough people to make up single language classes.
As to why snowboarders don’t take lesson is the topic of lots of other posts on here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Boredsurfing, you really are promiscuous with your forums aren't you?
Any others you care to dislose in a Goldsmithian moment of transparency?
I can see Catersearch, J2Ski, natives, snowforum.com - and a rash of links to dodgy insurance sales sites
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stevomcd, I agree that ESF are often excellent - but they tend to expect kids to be fairly self sufficient, cope with big classes, and not moan and grizzle if they don't get "promoted" to the next level automatically. Also, here, all their classes are 100% in French, which is a bit intimidating for all but the most confident and bouncy kids.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
stevomcd, I agree that ESF are often excellent - but they tend to expect kids to be fairly self sufficient, cope with big classes, and not moan and grizzle if they don't get "promoted" to the next level automatically. Also, here, all their classes are 100% in French, which is a bit intimidating for all but the most confident and bouncy kids.
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Mostly English or at least half-and-half round here, which helps a lot.
I used to teach (on dryslope) myself. Having to "fail" someone's kid on a level was always a total mare. Damn molly-coddled brits! Your wean was pish! Tell him to pay attention and stop blubbering next time!
(please note, not actually my teaching/customer care attitude!)
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FAQ
can you come with us next time, we'll have a 4yo as well we want to get onto the slopes?! 
ski nut even after only about half a dozen lessons in the local fridge, confident snowplough skier, in control (nearly 
) all the time and is itching to joint the bigger kids in the Saturday morning junior club once she's had a few more very little people lessons. She'd be fine with older kids up to say 12 or 13 (had plenty of practice dealing with those with two older sisters!). She certainly wouldn't be impressed to be dragged inside for warm and toys and crayons though would probably tolerate a short session (30-60 mins) of sledging, snowballs and other snow play as long as there was plenty of skiing time.
I'll admit Natives and j2ski but the others 
