Skiing on piste is too dangerous!

A snowHead

After all the talk of how dangerous it is off piste, I have been shocked at the number of serious on piste accidents I either saw or heard of last week. Sure, it was one of the busiest weeks of the year but it scared the hell out of me! Although I did very little skiing on piste, it seemed as if every piste I came down had a blood wagon being loaded up on it.

2 particular stories stick out. By coincidence, the people who live across the road were in Val D'Isere the same time as me. Sarah, the lady of the house, had a really nasty accident when a high speed skier ran into her on the lower sections of Face. She has a very badly broken tib and fib needing pinning and plating. She cannot put weight on it for 3 months. All told, a very nasty and avoidable accident.

In another resort, a friend of a friend was skied into while standing on the side of a piste and although there are no broken bones, there are serious internal injuries including serious liver damage.

Whenever I skied with my 6.5 year old daughter I stayed up hill of her with a pole pointing straight up behind me. It seemed to keep people away but it still scared me the whole time.

I genuinely feel safer off piste where there might be dangers but at least there seems to be a chance of predicting the danger. I don't remember piste skiing being so hairy so am I becoming more paranoid or are people travelling faster and without control. Do the carving skis add to the problem, because they help people to carve at greater speeds and maybe use more of the mountain? And is there anything that can be done?

A snowHead

I agree, Simon. I've been skiing 8 years and was probalby one of the last to learn on straight skis. I'm shocked at the rapid progression that people make these day - for instance in Val d'Isere last month, one of the girls was complaining that she just couldn't get her parallel turns right.

it was her SECOND day on snow! I;ve been skiing eight years and still don;t ski parallel all the time!

Anyway, as a result of the swift progression thanks to improved equipment, people are doing things that are probalby beyond them, and going to fast. They aren;t learngin basic mountaincraft like where is safe to stop, how has right of way - as an aside one of our girls was shouted at by a bloke for "turning right in front of me": well, hello, she's downhill and has priority, it's your job to avoid her - and to make sure you're controlling your speed to be able to do so, nobber! -

anyway, yes, pistes are getting more dangerous. I agree with the idea of piste police and think it;s a shame that a lot of people are resistant to the idea because "we've been skiing for years and never had any problems". These are usually the same kind of people who don't like the idea of organising lift queues, for instance

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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I also agree with both of you. I definitely noticed an increase in the amount of out of control skiers in Courcheval. Luckily it wasn't too busy a couple of weeks ago, but there are a lot more skiiers around who don't observe the etiquette. Ironically, the only accident I had was self inflicted, but had a few near misses. I endorse the idea of a piste patrol like I believe they have in the States.

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SimonN, St. Anton was like that two weeks ago. People everywhere and quite a few going too fast for theirs and other peoples safety. Whilst I was there I saw the helicopter picking bodies up 4 times and the blood wagons every day. Even though the snow was great it takes the edge off it when there are so many loonies around. If my kids had had been with me I would have been a nervous wreck and probably had a punch up with some idiot to boot.
Brooksie

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Another reason people are reluctant to 'police' pistes is the difficulty in enforcement. Its much easier to change the world from ones armchair!
My experience of working in management is - You come in with a great idea, which seems obvious, and the boss goes yes thats a great idea, please implement it and report back in 3 months. Then you think 'oh b****r I don't know how to do it, I wish I hadn't said anything Sad

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3 posts about accidents on the piste and no mention of reckless boarders - amazing snowHead

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stephen bleakley, skiiers are st as guilty these days in my experience

After all it is free

Skiers' trajectories were more predictable before carving skis. And now you get 'experts' in as little as a week, but who lack the experience and savvy to recognise the variations in conditions - snow, weather, congestion - and ski recklessly as a result. Few take lessons. Few know the piste rules. They often only realise they are skiing out of control when they take someone out.

Am I the only one who sees this as a particularly European phenomenon? I see far less out of control skiers on the other side of the Atlantic, with or without the prescence of piste patrol/onslope policing.

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yep defo. just back from courch and felt far safer skiing blacks than blues and reds. normally they were quieter and almost every one on them could ski in control. i felt especially worried last week, even more so after i had a colission with a snowboarder, fortunately no injury but resulted in me falling around 20 metres and losing all kit and him just carrying on, no stoppin to check i was ok. i also became far more wary of snowboarders, as those of lesser ability fail to compensate adequately for their blind spot.

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I'm going to controversially disagree with you all.

It's easy to blame skiers, but the big resorts must carry the blame. Most people want a fix of adrenaline when they take to the mountains, and that means skiing on the edge of their ability at least occasionally. When resorts sell too many lift tickets and install too many high capacity lifts without expanding the area of their pistes, the resultant overcrowding is certain to lead to accidents.

It's nearly impossible to ski some home-run pistes safely - they're like the M25 in a rush hour. If you want to keep an adequate distance from your fellow skiers, you literally need to wait for the lifts to shut so everyone else can go home.

But it doesn't have to be like that. Last week (half-term and President's day approaching) in Big Sky, many of the runs were completely deserted. I have photos showing high-speed quad chairs with no-one occupying any visible seat. And I have photos of the home-runs with no skiers to be seen anywhere. Yet Big Sky stays in business.

And guess what? I didn't have any accidents. Or near misses. At all. If you value your life, quit moaning, leave the mega-resorts behind and find somewhere decent to ski.

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It seemed to me that there were more loonies/ijits/inconsiderate slope users in the resorts I visited, I thought I was being over sensitive. Anyway,5 weeks after I was "taken out" from above on a Green slope in VT-still can't drive,unable to sleep through because of pain, can raise arm-but not lower it! Still, only a broken collar bone and no skiing for 3 months Evil or Very Mad

Jonny Jones, can't really see that - more room in the big resorts I go to, less beginners find their way to the areas I prefer to ski, you can always find a quiet area. Depending on the time of year they can be virtually deserted. Conversely, although the really small resorts can be real gems, those inbetween sometimes suffer from overcrowding more than their mega neighbours.

You know it makes sense.

Okanagan, nope, just back from Canada and I've never seen so many people being helped off the mountain.

Average speeds were up on euro resorts IMHO and the double diamonds were safer places to be than the Blues. I also agree with Jonny Jones, that better lift systems have got ride of queues and put the people who would have been queueing onto the snow.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

PG, I was basing my observations on some of the runs back to Tignes-Val-Claret last year. Although there were some deserted runs at the resort's extremiteies, it was nearly impossible to ski safely for the last few hundred metres when the runs converged. And, in my view, the long red down from the funicular was always dangerously overcrowded. A speeding blader missed my son by inches there - but if the blader wanted to speed, he had nowhere else to do it.

The pistes need to be wider and more plentiful to match the resort's uphill capacity.

A snowHead

I agree with Jonny Jones about the home runs.
These are the worst - they are often blue runs which then have all mixes of abilities.
So-called experts still try to get down these runs a quickly as possible.
I would like to see the American-style patrol system operating on these runs at the end of the day.

A snowHead

I agree 100% with SimonN's original assertion, which is that despite all that's said about the dangers of off-piste skiing you are in fact safer there than on the piste. No matter where I am skiing these days I try to avoid skiing on the piste at all. Too many people. Too much ice. Too much speed! I am certain (in a gut feeling sort of way) that the percentage of on-piste skiers that are hurt and killed is higher than the percentage of off-piste skiers, even if they do get far more attention from the press when something happens to them. A significant proportion of those injuries and deaths resulting from collisions, which is something that simply won't happen to you off piste.

There again, quite likey the most dangerous place of all is the motorway leading to the ski resort you want to slide around in!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

marc gledhill, where were you? I've always found that in BC at least the average standard of skiing is a lot higher than in most Euro resorts, and the amount of space per person is definately a lot higher.

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Some resorts in Europe have skiing Police (or used to), remember seeing them years ago, and they were armed. It seemed out of place then, perhaps they could have a more active role wink

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In 4 years of visiting La Rosiere we've noticed an increase in the number of lunatics hurtling down the blue "home" runs, Usually at the end of the day when you're skiing with kids who are thrilled to have found their feet (skis) only to be treated like slalom poles by these maniacs. We saw a midddle aged french skier take out a 3 yr old and one of our adults was knocked over andknocked out by someone who didn't even stop. Thre red Belette, which is a lovely wide one for the newbie kids, is like the outside lane of the M1 after lunch when all the Italians are heading home. Wouldn't mind the odd piste police myself.

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Okanagan, Tremblant. Smallish area, but nice varied skiing.

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Jonny Jones, Wonderful for you to have deserted runs, but what about the people whose living depends on the tourists? If we didn't have capacity weeks how would we eat for the rest of the year. I do work on the glacier in the summer, and also work for the 3 months closed season (in offices, temping) but my main income is earned during the 4 months of the winter season!

stephen bleakley, Funny about you thinking they're blue runs - come here, there aren't any! The biggest complaint here is that we have one horrid green path and all the other "home" runs are black - apart from the pisted Combe Valentin the rest of them are quiet and pleasurable, as are the chairlifts and gondolas!

snowbunny, We have ploice ski-ing on the pistes (complete with guns), but they seem to treat the day as a paid ski-ing day. I've never even seen them stop and talk to anyone! I'm not sure why they're there - I wish they'd do their jobs.

Having said all this, and most of you know this is my hobby horse: last week was much better than normal. Whay? I think it was because we didn't have the parisians on holiday at the same time as most of the rest of Europe. They're here this week, but not too many others so it's much safer than usual!!!! Toofy Grin

After all it is free

Some very interesting points. I don't think I can agree with Jonny Jones about the problem being to many high speed lifts. for instance, the espace Killy hasn't increased the number of rooms by a great deal but the lifts ditribute the people more evenly around the area. This makes it seem busier in many places but, conversly, some runs will be quieter.

I think the problem with policing is that it is gatting harder to tell who is an on the limit skier and who is travelling at the same speed but well within their limits. I admit to skiing on piste a lot faster than the average skier but am absolutely certain I am not a danger to other skiers. Its like driving fast cars - speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed does. But somebody policing the slopes doesn't get long to make a decision as to how dangerous a person is. Will we need speed limits? Will they stop people and give them a little technical test to assertain if they are in control at speed. Where would it end?

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It may not be possible in some resorts due to the topography etc but surely it would be useful and much safer to have a beginners/childrens "slow" run home even one that is even the same gradient as an adjacent busier run. Certainly something needs to be done because the number of speeding skiers has increased considerably in the ten years I have been skiing . resorts should at least carry out a study to see if they have a problem (accident numbers study)and see if changes are possible, a kind of risk assesment on themselves.

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Speed on piste is ok snowHead

Uncontrolled speed on piste is potentially dangerous Sad

Uncontrolled speed on a packed piste is an accident waiting to happen Mad

Potentially the most dangerous skiers are those who weave at high speed between groups of relatively inexperienced skiers on the last runs of the day, I know I've seen them, usually they're the ones that didn't get up until lunch time and are threfore much fresher than the rest of us unfit blobs who've been up on the mountain for 3 or 4 hours longer. if these sort of skiers occur on the final run back to resort you can usually find them at the narrowest sections of the piste impatiently trying to pass the class of 6 year old beginners by going through the middle of the group Evil or Very Mad

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Frosty,
Les Arcs 1800 has a family skiing area/run adjacent to another similar run, both of which can be used as a route back to base. Despite a big banner stretched across the slope, every few minutes "good" skiers/boarders still come hurtling down out of nowhere and into this area knowing that it is quieter as actually, many people do seem to respect it. Some of them slow down to pass the kids when I shout at them or try to impale them with my ricin tipped poles but most just look at me as if I'm mad and they have a divine right. It was the main area I used with my 3.5 year olds last year and will I suspect be where I spend a lot of time with my 4.5 year olds this year because it's better than nothing. Relying on civic mindedness isn't going to work, and if there are piste police in Les Arcs they're don't make their presence felt here.

You know it makes sense.

SimonN, I also tend to ski faster than most people on the piste, and I believe that I'm safe. I can't remember the last time that I crashed into someone, or someone crashed into me for that matter. Quicker skiing doesn't necessarily equate to more dangerous skiing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Kramer
Couldn't agree more. I have never crashed into anybody and am as sure as I can be that I have never even had a near miss. It worries me that people like PG think they can decide whether somebody is safe by a set of criteria. This is why I believe that policing will never really work. Its all subjective.

A snowHead

Skiing within your level of comptence is more important than speed per se. And good judgement which comes with experience.

A snowHead

SimonN,
As D G Orf says, it's not the speed but the weaving in and out, the dangerous practices, buzzing slower, less experienced skiers, skiing fast in family or slow areas Shocked

, that's the problem. No-one is intending on taking your speed fix away (or mine wink

) but with more and faster piste users, I suspect policing is as inevitable as it is necessary. Lots of things are subjective, doesn't stop them from being worthwhile. I'm sure you ski safely and have nothing to fear from policing. snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Knowing very little about the abilities of those who have replied, this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general comment.

So despite the responses - and I would point out that I didn't even come close to naming any "criteria for being safe" despite Simon's words wink

- you often find similar views voiced by those who consider themselves to be advanced skiers while spending at best a few weeks p.a. on the slopes, albeit over a period of years. Kramer, "a lot faster" was the expression used by SimonN - I just wondered what that meant.

The reason I mentioned club skiers or instructors? Most are on the slopes for three or four months a year. Most have the sort of all-round, all terrain training and skill that very few leisure skiers possess. Piste awareness has become a completely instinctive reaction. They spend so much time on the slopes that they have plenty of opportunity to speed when there is genuinely zero risk - they are not cramming their skiing into a few, often busy weeks. They are familiar with the terrain and snow conditions in a way visitors can never be. Ski-specific fitness training means they can control speed safely, and for longer periods, when most people's legs have long turned to rubber. Most get the real buzz from skiing off piste. The kick from skiing at speed only really works when they know the piste ahead has been reserved for them and they can genuinely let go. They know their limits from exploring them on countless previous occasions in secure circumstances.

In the end it boils down to what is actually meant by "a lot faster than the average skier". Few leisure skiers have the ability to ski safely at speeds anything like those of skiers with the standards I have in mind.

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SimonN, Kramer, Sorry guys but IMHO some of what you claim is flawed. It smacks of the same logic that people use about speeding on the UK roads i.e "Nothing wrong with speed per se, It's the others who are dangerous, it is safe for me to go faster than everyone else 'cos I'm a Good Driver etc". However we tend not to hear from that group after they have had accidents for which they are culpable.

Think of it , would you deliberately drive 'faster than others' near a UK primary school and publically say so ? If you were Michael Schumacher, would you think you had the ability and subsequent rights to drive 'faster and safer' past that school than Joe Public? I think not. My experience of exposure to ski slopes and 1/2 term breaks is small and I found it frightening. There is no way that the actions of some of those youngsters are predictable and speed and their presence just do not mix. For those of us without school age kids it is so much easier and cheaper to ski at quieter times.

As to 'criteria' , I'm afraid it is the way of civilisation. Someone will invent them for piste skiing one day - my guess that they may just originate on the US-side of 'The Pond' though! Very Happy

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Newbie50, Firstly, read what I posted above before climbing onto the anti speeding bandwagon, namely "speed doesn't kill, inappropriate speed does". It seems that just like in the UK where the anti car lobby uses flawed statistics to show that speed is a major contributing factor in motor vehicle accidents(which the government then seize to justify their revenue collecting camaras), people assume that speed is the factor in skiing accidents. Well, I don't think it is. I think that accidents happen due to skiers skiing beyond their abilities. Speed only contributes to the consiquences of that out of control skiing. It is equally easy to cause a fairly serious injury at low speed. A slow twisting fall is more likely to blow an ACL that a high speed one and banging your head on rock/ice even in a low speed accident can be very nasty.

PG, While at first I thought your comments were far too general, I do see where you are coming from. I jumped on your comments because I believe that it is very difficult to generalise aboit who has the ability to ski fast and who doesn't. While the group you highlight obviously have the skill to do so, there are others. And there lies the danger in trying to police speed on the piste - it becomes subjective and when that happens, the system is open to abuse and injustice.

Just to set the record straight, when I am "speeding" in a group its a group being led by the guide/instructor. Many of the ones I ski with are ex racers (FIS) or in one case an ex moguls world champ and often when the morning has over run we need to get back so that they don't miss their pm engagement. Believe me, if they think their group can handle it and conditions allow, they have been known to travel a little faster than the average skier wink

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Fine, I agree with all that. Just one point though - being a FIS racer only means someone 16 and above who possesses a FIS licence, and other factors being equal (age, fitness), there's a massive gulf in control and standard between someone on 50 FIS points and someone on 200 and below! Mentioned that I watched some Welsh team FIS racers at Menuires last month. I can think of a few who would worry me if I saw them skiing at great speed!

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To conclude and summarise, We need pistes with harshly enforced speed limits (by Armed Police Officers)
A High speed lane for those that are late for lunch and of course youngsters (and beginners?) totally and completeley seperated for their own good. wink

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To pick up on the point by Jonny Jones, I would tend to agree. If lift improvements over the years mean that we spend less time queuing and less time travelling up the hill, this means that consequently there must be more people coming down, assuming the numbers of people and the number of pistes remain constant. Therefore, the pistes must become busier.

Ray Zorro, yep, but resorts are also increasing numbers of beds (for tourists) and access roads (mainly for locals) - so unless the number of runs or skiable area also increases, then it has to get busier.

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PG, LOL @ Welsh team comments! Harsh.....but fair Laughing

Luckily I don't ski with any welsh racers (that I am aware of). I am talking about "real" racers from France. In fact, last week I skied with a guide I have known for years who used to compete in the most "stupid" type of event I know of. You skin up the course, turn around a marker at the top and then come down the same course as fast as possible. And the courses were all proper downhill courses! Can you imagine racing uphill on skins while having racers at full speed coming downhill at you! Barking mad, I would say! Laughing

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Skiing on piste is too dangerous!

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