 Poster: A snowHead
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Data published today by Direct Travel Insurance and sourced (it says here) from the Association of Mountain Doctors in France says that female skiers are at significant risk of injury in their first week of sking.
This report from PrivateHealth.co.uk
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| The most common injury is still a sprained knee – over 15,500 of the most severe case (rupture of a ligament) were reported last season. Over the 2008/2009 season 50% of women’s injuries happened to beginners (seven days’ practice or less), compared to 22% for men. The risk of accidents amongst beginners is multiplied by two. |
The text also says "Badly adjusted boots and lack of physical preparation are the biggest factor behind serious knee injuries." That's the first time I've seen "badly adjusted boots" blamed for knee injuries, and I spent about 8 years giving technical evidence on ski accidents/injuries to UK and Australian courts. It's certainly true that beginners are vulnerable, and maybe more attention should be paid to preparing newbies for the physical stresses of snowploughing etc., while putting a big focus on minimising the risk of falls.
Any medic / ski injury specialist care to comment?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I heard a reconstructive knee surgeon say that the textbook skiing knee injury patient is a slow-moving female skier in a slow speed twisting fall. If you are going fast your bindings will usually spit you out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, that sounds about right... "nervous/wimpy" women sitting down rather than tackling it more aggressively. Gosh, I know I've worded that all wrong, but I hope at least some of you will understand!
I am always astounded by the number of non-skiiers who claim skiing is an extremely dangerous hobby and that one *will* break bones on the hill... or perhaps I've just been very lucky as have my ski companions.
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Certainly my first and only significant knee injury was day 3 of my first ski holiday and without doubt I fell into the "nervous/wimpy" add "unfit" catergory - still do tbh but "slow" is now fast enough for the bindings to spit me out on the rare occasion I fall. The flying bogee also 'did' his knee on the first week of his first ski holiday aged 5 - that must have been the boot thing, because he wasn't slow, even then.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How about looking at this stat the other way. 78% of injuries to male skiers happen to more experienced skiers who think they know it all and get a bit gung ho...
Now where are those GS skis...! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I heard a reconstructive knee surgeon say that the textbook skiing knee injury patient is a slow-moving female skier in a slow speed twisting fall. If you are going fast your bindings will usually spit you out.
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I can totally relate to that. That's exactly how I twisted my knee three times.
Ernst Goldsmith, I think my boots were partly to blame the first time. They were too big so I think that part of the force that should have gove straight to snapping out of the bindings was lost in my foot/ankle moving inside my boot.
But I don't necessarily agree with the beginner bit. Last time it happened was at the end of a long off piste run where I was tired and the light suddenly went totally flat. It was purely down to bad technique at the time and lack of speed.
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If this is the case, do ski binding manufacturers have sex as an input to calculate DIN settings? From memory, I don't think they do.
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Bear in mind that ski bindings don't really protect against knee ligament injuries. As stoatsbrother says, the risk is slow 'back seat' twisting falls. The original release-binding engineering of the 1950s (upon which bindings of the 2010s is based) was geared towards protecting leg bones from fracture. In certain situations the knee requires a much lower release threshold for protection.
Engineers have struggled with this ligament/bone balancing act for decades now. The electronic ski binding - which might offer instantaneous variations in release thresholds - has only appeared in prototype form, and was never perfected.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Annie wrote: |
| The flying bogee also 'did' his knee on the first week of his first ski holiday aged 5 - that must have been the boot thing, because he wasn't slow, even then. |
Was he ever slow? Having skiied with you at the last eosb I See it did not slow him up at all 
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Are we seeing the trees rather than the forest?
The "data" was a selective quote from an insurance company. I'm inclined to take it with a rather big grain of salt.
In fact, I recall a study some years back concluding women are more prone to ski-related knee injuries due to their hip biomechanics.
I do know quite a few female beginner who sprain their knee on first week. But I know far more skiers, male or female, who completely blow out there knee many YEARS into skiing.
A good portion of of knee injuries do occur at low speed as I observe amoung my skiing friend though. It's well known binding are designed to portect leg bones, not knee ligaments.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| If this is the case, do ski binding manufacturers have sex as an input to calculate DIN settings? From memory, I don't think they do. |
One version of the DIN chart uses tibia head width and weight to calculate the required setting. I think this is more likely to work for women than height.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I heard a reconstructive knee surgeon say that the textbook skiing knee injury patient is a slow-moving female skier in a slow speed twisting fall. If you are going fast your bindings will usually spit you out. |
The recently retired bones man at Odstock, (also a keen skier) says exactly the same thing 
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How about looking at this stat the other way. 78% of injuries to male skiers happen to more experienced skiers who think they know it all and get a bit gung ho...
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beanie1 has a point. Women are often going to have weaker leg muscles, and be more afraid of falling - both factors will make them more prone to those low speed twisting falls. However, they are also more likely to be more cautious, and more prone to skiing within their abilities, as they gain experience and skill (OK OK these are massive generalisations....). We saw a classic couple this morning, on a steepish red run which was a bit beyond either of them (we were watching from the superior height of a chairlift!). You could see him, most definitely out of control, going faster with each turn, hurtling down in "giraffe about to give birth" position, to the nice long flat run out at the bottom. He made it, but it was "tout juste". She, after a couple of out of control turns, made the next one a rather desperate turn back across the slope and slithered to a stop. She then took stock, got herself together, and managed a few more turns, inelegant but pretty safe, down to the flat area.
Their skiing skills were similar but their approach was different. He was far more likely to hurt himself, though he was probably also having more fun. She would have felt terrified by a similar lack of control, I'm sure.
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You know it makes sense.
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rjs, what's tibia head width? Is that hip width?
abc, but beginners are a high risk group as far as injuries are concerned, all the stats show that don't they?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| abc, but beginners are a high risk group as far as injuries are concerned, all the stats show that don't they? |
Is that so?
While I can see the logic of the whole class of "learners" having more injuries while they're going through the process of learning something unfamiliar, it was specifically 1st weeker they're talking about.
I have difficulty seeing the logic applying to such specific.
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Poster: A snowHead
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When the first serious knee injury analysis started appearing in the mid-1980s I recall that Carl Ettlinger (veteran writer on skiing and ski safety) drew a comparison between beginners experiencing similar knee injuries to ski racers. The 'phantom foot' injury - his expression for a backward-twisting fall, where the 'phantom foot' behind the real foot exerts leverage on the knee - affects both groups of skiers quite significantly.
Of course, skiers at all levels experience knee injuries, but the key point is to minimise the risk of falling (which only training can address). Ettlinger has, since then, also promoted the idea of 'falling in a safer way'. But it's not easy to avoid collapsing backwards, and when the ski then goes on edge the threat exerts itself.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 15-01-10 13:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Applies to me, I tore a cartilage in my left knee second time out learning to ski when I was 16. It was a slow speed knee twisting fall injury where my binding failed to release on that side.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm sure most of the injuries are related to being tired.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| rjs, what's tibia head width? Is that hip width? |
Effectively width of knee.
Most women have narrower knees than a man of similar height so they can put more torque into their ligaments.
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