 Poster: A snowHead
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Second question of the day.
I need a new jacket. Do I go for soft shell, or hard shell?
Does either have any notable advantages or disadvantages over the other?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Welcome 
see here
and here in particular
the search function on the forum sucks - but you can do a decent site search with google
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Oldmacdonald, Hard shell is waterproof - handy if you're going to the PdeS in early season
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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red 27, my softshell is as waterproof as a hard shell......
BUT There are many companies calling differing products soft shell, buyer beware!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think windproof might be the difference.
You can make softshell fabric waterproof. Or you can have a hardshell that's NOT waterproof. But the "hard" shell is usually quite windproof.
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My softshell is waterproof, but probably not very warm. I'd only wear it on a warm bluebird day. I'd always wear my proper ski jacket in sub zero temperatures.
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jzBun, highly dubious IMV
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arno wrote: |
| jzBun, highly dubious IMV |
Agreed. I've been looking at a lot of Arcteryx stuff recently as we're buying some new kit for a ski school uniform and that stuff on eBay doesn't look like anything that I've seen from the company.
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To answer the OP's question, the original soft shells (Montane, Buffalo, I think) were designed to address the needs of people who found waterproof and windproof materials were not breathable enough for some activities (e.g. winter fell running, summer alpine climbing) and wanted a single jacket more versatile than a base, mid, outer layering system.
So they bonded a thin pertex outerlayer to a fleece inner and were designed to be worn with very little (if anything) underneath. They give wind and rain protection but are not windproof or waterproof. This is because there is a trade off between how wet the outside is versus the inside and the assumption that the people using the jackets are generating enough heat to remain reasonably comfortable through a range of conditions without having to change clothing.
Clearly this concept has evolved and some companies throw waterproofs and windproof fabrics into the soft shell bracket - this is because a lot of people don't use them in the manner they were originally designed for.
Having used a fairly wide range myself I would make the following observations:-
- If you are not being very energetic OR it is very cold/wet then a pure soft shell is probably inappropriate
- I think for most people most of the time skiing falls into this category
- You could definitely ski with a windproof "soft shell" if the air temp is not too cold or its warm and dry, for other purposes it defeats the object
- I have skied in the Arcteryx Gamma - a great jacket - light, breathable and stretchy - very comfortable when you have the right base layering but not a defensive barrier if the weather turned
I now only really ski in Gore Tex.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I bought a Decathlon soft shell after being really impressed with their soft shell pants that I got for touring. I expected it to keep the wind off and keep me dry in light showers but when I got caught out by torrential rain while climbing I was surprised to find it still kept me completely dry. It's warmer than my hard shell too. Given I don't make a habit of boarding in torrential rain I think it'll be perfect for that; I'll also be using it ice climbing this winter for much the same reasons: I won't be climbing in rain because if it's that warm then the ice will probably fall down. I'll back it up with a down jacket over the top, even if it's snowing the down shouldn't get wet. The only problem with it is that I could only get it in black they sell better colours abroad.
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You know it makes sense.
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Was very tempted by the Decathlon soft shell, it's the sort of thing I'm after for spring boarding. Would've got one had they done the ladies version in something other than red as it would look horrible with my trousers and the mens one didn't fit right. I don't live any where near one either.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've got the Salomon Snowtrip II jacket which is a 3 in 1 softshell witha zip out fleece layer.
I used it all last season in Saas Fee including on the top of the glacier in -50 degrees (With winchill)
It was warm, comfortable and on the two occasions when we got rain during teh season kept me dry. I prefer it to my hardshell in all conditions an just never seem to find any downsides with it. This is only my experience and may not be the softshell experiance over all
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have a Salomon 3in1 softshell. Totally waterproof and windproof, comfortable, stretchy and as warm as you want as it has a zip in thermal coat, so you can use it as a shell, a full coat and the inner can be worn as an apres ski jacket. Far nicer than my old ski waterproofs, softer and less noisey than goretex
I've sat in the snow for ages and worn it digging snow caves and crawling in the snow. Worn it in severe snowstorms and heavy rain storms, Worm it at Hemel and Dubai (OK it was too much at +50C). Worn it for Jan skiing -25c (full liner, all done up and fleec underneath) and March sunshine skiing +15C (No liner, zip undone)
Best jacket I've ever had (and I've had a lot)
Oh and the matching trousers are superb as well
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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just pulled this of the net. its pretty spot on.
Mountain Hardwear’s Synchro Jacket is very good. i own one and use it for everything.
but i would say that i work for them.
Here’s the deal:
When do I pack a hardshell?
On any day trip where rain is a possibility. On any multiday backpacking trip—period. When weight is a big concern, I’ll always opt for the rock solid weather protection of a hardshell—which is always lighter and more packable than a softshell.
Hardshells are made using a tightly woven face fabric that’s either laminated to a waterproof/breathable membrane—such as Gore-Tex or eVent—or sprayed with a waterproof/breathable microporous coating. For way more details on the differences between these two types of hardshells, check out this article from our Oct. 2009 issue.
When do I wear a softshell?
When you’re skiing, snowshoeing, or doing anything outside in the winter. All softshells have a DWR (durable waterproof coating) that repels light precipitation, like snow or drizzle, and for winter sports, when hardshells can get so crinkly and loud, it’s nice to wear a quiet softshell.
I’ll also go for a softshell when I’m biking or running. (Who am I kidding? I hate running. But if I were a runner, I’d wear a softshell.) Or on a daytrip when weight and pack space are not a big concern.
Softshells are made using stretch woven face fabrics. Most softshells are not waterproof (see below)—they block the wind and provide way better breathability than hardshells. And because the fabric is soft and stretchy, they often fit really well and have a totally stylin’ look for around town.
But here’s where it gets tricky: Some softshells are actually waterproof—like Mountain Hardwear’s Synchro Jacket (left) , for example. That’s because they laminate their Conduit waterproof/breathable membrane to the stretchy face fabric, and they tape the seams. There are some weird marketing restrictions surrounding how companies can label their fabrics, so Mountain Hardwear is careful not to call this jacket “waterproof.” But it is.
You’ll have to do some sleuthing to determine if a softshell is the “waterproof” kind or not; but generally speaking, it’s waterproof if it is:
a) Laminated to a membrane, and
b) Has taped seams.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Salomon Softshell 3in1 is sold and labelled as 10,000mm waterproof and 10,000 lph breathable (yes it has taoed seams, membrane must be withing the shell
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, ski school uniform socks, is it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| rob@rar, ski school uniform socks, is it? |
Little bit more than that, although as you mention it I did recently acquire a box of Teko socks 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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They are almost certainly fakes. I’ve been living in Shanghai for the past few months and there’s fake ski stuff all over the place. They've got fake North Face, Arcteryx, Spyder, Canada Goose, Mammut, Peak Performance …………………. You can get any brand for 15-25 quid depending on quality.
The quality of them varies greatly but all of the fleeces are abysmal. The outer shell can be very good, waterproof and breathable, taped seems and waterproof zips.
I was shocked to see the Gore Tex 'North Face' gloves I bought on ebay last winter for 30 quid at the fake market selling for 5 quid. The gloves are great and performed well last winter however they are fake!
So be very careful, recently I’ve seen fake base layers in the shops.
Sorry about the over use of 'quid', my chinese keyboard doesn't have a pound sign.
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I have a Arcteryx goretex softshell; bought in Canada at half the price of the UK. I got it because I can use it year round, for many sports; it is my default jacket and I wouldn`t be without it. Having said that, it`s going back after 2 years for repairs to the zip seal, and the fabric has been furred up by the velcro on the cuffs. Those ebay ones have a very different Recco on them from mine.
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| sean1967 wrote: |
| ...Sorry about the over use of 'quid', my chinese keyboard doesn't have a pound sign. |
I've been tripped up by this before. Try 'GBP' or for the real McCoy hold down 'Alt' and then type '0163' on the numeric keypad - like this: £
More info here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=16845
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have been cyling quite a bit recently and normally wear a softshell which is great, breathes and is showerproof. Yesterday had to go to a meeting and rain threatened so I wore my light Goretex jacket, which is great for golf, but couldn't cope at all with my increased exertion and I arrived far too sweaty.
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I'm beginning to think that a softshell (without waterproof membrane) and a light Gore tex waterproof in the backpack for when the weather is bad (rainning, high winds etc) is the way to go. The softshells without membrane tend to be cheaper and the Gore Tex jacket won't wear out quickly so it should be cheaper in the long run too. Max breathability / comfort and 'waterproofness' when you need it.
http://www.psychovertical.com/cuthecrap
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DB, won't being crumpled up in a backpack every time you go out affect the hardshell performance too? Don't know if it will be much different to wearing it in the first place 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DB, That is basically my preferred system but with an instructors long rain jacket as the top layer in bad weather.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Has anyone really needed the waterproofness of Gore Tex for skiing? When it rains or is windy do we really get and need breathability?
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Personally, I doubt it. My hardshell is eVent which is supposed to be more breathable than Gore-Tex but I still overpower it with my awesome sweatiness when doing anything remotely resembling effort. How often, in the Alps, do you ski in the rain anyway? Off piste it's dangerous and on piste it's too miserable to be bothering doing it much.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Swirly,
I'm with you. I need breathability more than waterproofness and all said and done Gore tex, Event etc are plastic bags (very technical and expensive plastic bags but still). Probably better to spend the money on the underlayers (merino wool, technical string vests etc) than on a Kjus jacket. It might even be better to use a dedicated waterproof over the softshell only when you really need it.
e.g. Softshell and rain jacket as explained here
http://www.spadout.com/w/jacket/
| Quote: |
Waterproofing vs. Breathability
One common mistake is for a person to ask if a garment is waterproof, when the real question should be "how waterproof is it?" Most people don't realize that there is a spectrum of waterproof levels that are, for the most part, inversely related to breathability. This simply means that as a jacket gets more waterproof, it becomes less breathable, and vice versa. There are plenty of technologies out there that increase breathability without sacrificing waterproofness too much, but as a general rule of thumb, it seems to hold pretty true. |
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 19-11-10 13:52; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Swirly, You've obviously never skiied in Scotland then.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| deerman wrote: |
| Swirly, You've obviously never skiied in Scotland then. |
For Scotland, Oil skins are what you need
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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deerman, where you're probably better off in Paramo
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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deerman, but when it is warm enough to rain, i get really sweaty.. so whether the water comes from the sky or me, i still end up wet
hardshells are great if you aren't really working up too much of a sweat
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, No - a wet suit !
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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robin,
I have a ME syncro. It's a nice jacket but you know what? I hardly ever wear it. Why I hear you ask?
Well, it's not breathable enough for true soft shell duties. I.e., high energy activities when it isn't really wet - no membrane based jacket is.
It's not weatherproof enough for really bad conditions (only because it hasn't got a hood, you're right, it is basically waterproof)
It's too warm for those mild but wet conditions (when you reallly need a well-vented hard shell over a base layer or t-shirt)
I say this not to knock what is a high quality product but just to say that I think you (one) need two jackets:
1. a proper hard shell for bad weather (I have an arc'teryx sidewinder)
2. a highly breathable, windproof, water resistant (not waterproof) and hooded softshell for most other conditions (I have an arc'teryxepsilon hoody). This means a tightly woven fabric with a DWR coating NOT a membrane laminate
For skiing, if I only was going to have one jacket it would be a hard shell. Ironically, because skiing is not that aerobic and conditions tend to be cool and dry, it is probably the best use for my Syncro - it's just I tend to opt for either of the arc'teryx jackets because they cover more basis (changes in the weather).
Cheers,
J
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Swirly, Seconded. I get soaked from the inside with Gore Tex on all but the coldest days. Better in a good soft shell and ski in dry powder. If it rains it's time to seek refuge or wear a bin bag.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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MH not ME
Yes I have a few Gore jackets from pac lite to pro shell and also have other soft shell jackets , all I said was I use my syncro for everything - It covers most bases if you only want one jacket .
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jedster, my wife wears her MH syncro as a layer under her sidewinder if it is really cold...
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FAQ
