 Poster: A snowHead
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I live at sea level so when I suddenly go up to 2000+ metres I feel a little like the proverbial Fish out of water.
It takes a couple of days to a. get a little fitter (OK so I know I can do that at sea level) and b. I guess the blood starts to work better.
Is there a safe/legal way to increase red cell count in advance of going?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Michael B, Your red blood cell count won't increase significantly in a couple of days by sking. However when they measure these things they do it on a concentration basis rather than an absolute number if you can't boost the red cells quickly you can reduce the stuff they swim in.
Drink a bottle of whisky and no water. Next day your blood count will be nicely elevated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Michael B, It takes 7 days to produce new red blood cells so you'll be home before you feel the benefit.
You can inject yourself with erythropoietin which is a hormone produced by the kidneys which stimulates the bone marrow to produce red blood cells. Commonly known as EPO and is a banned substance for athletes- no doctor is going to prescribe it though unless you've got renal failure!
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Hypoxic chamber - quite legal.
EPO - not strictly legal
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Various ways this can be acheived
1 Stay at 2000 m a week before your ski trip to arrive already aclimatised
2 Don't go home from last year
3 Only take every other breath for a week before
4 Do lots of airobic exercise at high altitude for a week (skiing is good) drain blood, store it for a year and replace current blood with stored blood a day before going skiing
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Michael B, having a raised concentration of RBC also increases your risk of thrombus (clotting) due to the fact your blood is "more viscus" hence why recreation use of EPO is not legal. And would therefore be unwise before setting off on a skiing holiday(car/plane journeys~DVTs).
A better and cheaper option would be to boost your cardiovascular fitness.
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Michael B, I have a blood condition called Polycythemia which means I produce lots of red blood cells more than happy to donate a few to you 
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Alternatively, stay in a 'low' resort. For example, Brides les Bains is at only 600m so a good night's rest is more or less assured. Oxygen stored up overnight will, mostly, last the next day. This is exactly why we keep going back - despite the long ride to and from the slopes. Remember the high-altitude climber's maxim: sleep low, climb high.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There are also variations in different native peoples and not all raise their Hb/PCV the same amount.
altis, Good idea about the low resort - sleeping lower and going down the hill to sleep helps (I hate sleeping at over 2800m) - and indeed there are very few native tribes who normally live at >5500m - BUT do some simple maths on O2 storage capacity - and you will see that the idea that "Oxygen stored up overnight will, mostly, last the next day" is wrong. I can drag our my old respiratory phsyiology textbooks if you want. But generally speaking - at a resting state you circulate your entire blood volume about once a minute, dropping the O2 saturation from about 98% arterial to about 75% venous. (let me know if you want the partial pressures) You will have some limited O2 reserves in your lungs which will be quickly depleted, as your VOmax will be 3-5L plus on exertion. So where is the O2 stored overnight ? It isn't really , but there are special issues about sleep at high altitude and the way it contributes to AMS and the recuperative effects of going down the hill.
I started a thread last year discussing my oxygen saturations in Zermatt.  We can function at sats which would normally lead to hospital admission if at Sea level.
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Red wine ????
Well that's my excuse !!
Actually that's quite weird now that i think about it - the only time i seem to drink white wine is on skiing holidays ???? WHy on earth woudl that be ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Michael B, take a look at the attached: http://www.53x12.com go to the "articles" section, then under "other", altitude training (couldn't get the link to work for some reason...) For those who are not cyclists, the author is the highly controversial `Dr Ferrari / aka "Dr Evil" . He has had a long association with Lance Armstrong, officially terminated after an EPO related court case a few years ago, but allegedly he was subsequently retained in secret to help with his altitude training & acclimatisation, which for road cyclists is massively important.
Anyway, you will see amongst other things he recommends iron supplementation before an altitude trip, maintaining good protein intake to maximise natural EPO production, and taking certain days as rest to assist the process...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
A better and cheaper option would be to boost your cardiovascular fitness.
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So will this increase RBC? My doctor said I had a low-ish RBC (12?) and that I should go back for further tests but I thought that it might just be "me". Needless to say I didn't bother going back . . .
Is 12 low? Would the cardiovascular work out help? I also live at 900M above sea level (would that matter?).
I get tired but not that much more than a "normal" person of my age who does what I do. I tried taking iron tablets which may have worked or I may have thought they did! But I've not kept them up. Never thought much about the altitude thing - but interested now it's been mentioned.
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother, granted.
I've used Diamox at higher altitudes with good effect but will there be any benefit at 2000-3000m?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Apparently Iron supliment (already mentioned) give your body the stuff readily availible from which to make the red blood cells
Comments?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Rocksteadee, Don't overlook iron from food! Tricky stuff tho as its hard to absorb but the men have a huge advantage needing significantly less than younger ladies. So gents if you are not running good haemoglobin stores/iron stores then suggest reviewing the intake - especially any vegetarians - and obviously following the docs advice. You can't make extra red blood cells by putting in more iron but you will make the ones you are supposed to. Iron supplements are often hefty doses and can upset the gut so better to plan early to do it more gently. Vitamin C from many fruits and veg help with iron absorbtion and the foods will contribute to intake too. Michael B, I remember there have been one or more threads on this with loads of thoughts previously - a year or so back. My best experience was arriving midpm the day before skiing and just pottering. Also if going up higher to ski stopping for a drink before starting to ski felt better than heading for the nearest lift.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnnyh, sorry for possibly misleading you. Exersise at sea level will not result in any significant change in RBC consentration. BUT it will enable you to use theRBC you have more effectivly due to you developing a more effecent cardiovascular system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Michael B wrote: |
| It's not a real problem for me just a noticeable shortness of breath when going up those flights of steps from village centre of Belle Plagne to the top. |
You do know about Belle Plagne's two best kept secrets? -the lifts from behind the bowling alley up to the topmost apartment blocks 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Rocksteadee wrote: |
Various ways this can be acheived
1 Stay at 2000 m a week before your ski trip to arrive already aclimatised
2 Don't go home from last year
3 Only take every other breath for a week before
4 Do lots of airobic exercise at high altitude for a week (skiing is good) drain blood, store it for a year and replace current blood with stored blood a day before going skiing |
5 Become a professional cyclist and apply to do Tour de France. You get free EPO then 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Michael B, johnnyh, hi really intresting thread, my wife is a very recent kidney transplant patient, we have EPO here??? LOL we have but no way should you take if your fit and healthy plus it cost about 350 a pop. The RBC is controlled by the Kidneys but also many other factors not just the EPO side of things.
RBC of 12 for a male is a little low should be 13 to 18 lower in women. funny about the Whiskey comment above, a good amount of whiskey will not raise your Hb but will thin your blood and sometimes lower your blood pressure which can make you feel full of energy as the blood pumps quicker around your system.
One thing not mentioned above "I think" is the importance of potassium (K) low K levels make you feel you have no energy, tennis players eat bananas to boost K, however do not Over dose on K as it stops the heart!!! however if your fit then this should not happen.
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Hywel, NOOOOOOOO!!  I didn't. However it is 5 years since I've been and we were in Nereides which is at the absolute highest point so I will console myself that it would not have been worth it.
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Hmmmm.... I lost quite a lot of blood in an accident over the weekend and am off to Alpe d'Huez in a week and a bit. Ambulance technician (just based on the amount of blood lying around the scene of the accident) reckoned about 1 to 1.5litres lost. I now feel absolutely knackered (not helped by not getting much sleep Sat night) and am concerned that it's going to affect my skiing.
So I'm trying to stick to a good diet, taking additional vits with iron, avoiding alcohol and trying to limit coffee (although when I'm knackered the espresso machine is very tempting just so I can function!).
I'm normally pretty active (running, cycling and gym) but can't decide whether I should abstain 'til after skiing or go for a run/ride as soon as I feel like it. To be honest it's the last thing I want to do right now.
Who knows? I may have one good sleep tonight and wake up feeling right as rain.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
funny about the Whiskey comment above, a good amount of whiskey will not raise your Hb but will thin your blood
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Oh dear, for those who didn't realise the whisky comment was a joke based on the fact that it leaves you dehydrated.
It will give you no benefit, neither will Vit C iron etc unless you happen to be short of them though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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thefatcontroller,
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5 Become a professional cyclist and apply to do Tour de France. You get free EPO then
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LOL
Going Thur to Courchevel 1850 Started poping Iron tablets watch this space..............
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