After an interesting moment last season when I took half an hour to climb back 30 yards in order to avoid a 6-yard cliff drop, I thought I'd get at least the minimum equipment that I need if I end up in a place where skiing or walking down becomes impossible (cliff in a forest, steep couloir with unskiable section, that kind of thing. Hopefully not a crevasse!)
What's the minimum equipment that I need for this? I've just bought a 30-metre 8mm rope, two locking carabiners and that metal thingie shaped like a figure 8 but with unequal holes. What else do I need? (an ice screw? harness? etc, etc)
Bear in mind, for the time being this is not for ski mountaineering on purpose, just minimal kit in an emergency. And yes, of course, I need to learn how to use it. Assume I know nothing about climbing.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
horizon, mate to ski in front of you
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
horizon, a few years back I shared a gondola in la Grave with two young Americans from I think Jackson Hole. Their motto appeared to be 'follow a guided group and take a long rope'. This really pissed off the guide I was with (climbing). However their idea of a long rope was a lot longer than yours ( I think they each had a 50-60m rope) as well as harness, ice screw, tape.
I suppose the best way of avoiding this sort of thing is to actually have a clue where you are going!
What's the minimum equipment that I need for this?
Probably just a decent map ? Compass might be useful
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Is a rope any use to get you out of a hole when you are already in it? When you are down the hole, where do to plan to attach the sky hook to sling the rope over? Where can you buy good quality sky hooks?
horizon, knowing where you're going is the minimum. Absolute minimum.
And armed with that you don't need anything else.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
horizon, heh - was that with me and the Roos?
it's a bit of a piece of string question. if you're going that way, i'd probably pack an axe and crampons before i started messing about with rope. this assumes i'm only packing that gear in case i get lost rather than because I know I will need to do an abseil etc
if you are genuinely lost (rather than just cliffed out ), abseiling down something immediately gets rid of the option to retrace your steps unless you want to start rock climbing in ski boots
After all it is free
After all it is free
Adrian, This is the trouble with using metaphors... (but that said, one can imagine situations where you can climb out of holes using a rope...)
Haggis_Trap, I've got the compass.
under a new name, if there are loads of cliffs in a wooded area (eg Champex), you could end up above one even if you know quite well where you're going. I've seen guides going 30-50 yards too far left or right in a forest, and that's all it takes.
But OK, let's say that I want to do a couloir and I know it has a short section where a rope may come in useful.
Come on guys, I'm generally quite careful about where (and with whom) I ski, this is first about self-insurance and later maybe about doing lines I couldn't do otherwise. Having the equipment may also mean that I practice using it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Arno, good points.
I don't think it was with you and the Roos. (if you mean last season in AdH, that was brownmonkey, but he skied down after all).
I mean cliffed out. If lost I would not abseil down without thinking very carefully of "erase and rewind" options first.
Here's a pic of brownmonkey following Roo's instructions. I later skied down a couple meters of frozen waterfall, but nowhere that spectacular.
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horizon, i was about to say the only reason that took 30 mins was because Simon ended up upside down in a tree
if you know there is an anchor and you know your rope is long enough to double it through the anchor, if you get yourself a harness, you've probably got what you need (might want to check your abseil device is OK with 8mm rope). a proper climber/rope user will probably pop up now and tell me i'm an idiot.
if you don't know there will be an anchor, you'll need something to make an anchor. or you may want to reappraise your route!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
horizon, I normally carry:
30m rope
harness
2 screwgate karabiners
2 spring karabiners
2 slings
2 prussiks
if on a glacier, add 2 icescrews and maybe an iceaxe.
I also have an ascender, but it's not absolutely necessary.
With that I should be able to get down a cliff (and back up it if necessary), or climb back out of a crevasse, or haul someone out of one. You may in certain circumstances be able to do something useful with loops on the rope instead of the harness, but the harness is a lot more comfortable and more flexible. You can get really lightweight touring harnesses that take up virtually no room or weight.
I've never actually had to use any of this in anger though - and I'm not a mountaineer.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
horizon, ok, fair enough and (tiny) apologies for cheek. If you're somewhere where you might reasonably need it, it's a good call. My problem would be knowing what to do with it...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Adrian wrote:
Is a rope any use to get you out of a hole when you are already in it? When you are down the hole, where do to plan to attach the sky hook to sling the rope over? Where can you buy good quality sky hooks?
GrahamN Me too. I don't bother with the Prussiks, just carry lightweight ascenders. If it's just the two of us, Mrs Ski carries the same. Mrs Ski has been in a crevasse (my fault), so we don't talke chances any more.
horizon, Good idea to practise and work out how the things will work when you need them.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GrahamN, I'd suggest you're carrying too much for a rescue kit. For a standard Z-pulley you'll need an anchor device e.g. an ice screw or a ski or axe burried with a sling around it, 2 locking crabs & 2 prussics or 2 tibloc type autobloks.
For the OP i'd suggest you would would need -
30m rope
2 locking crabs (1 for leaving behind at your anchor, preferably cheap & 1 for your belay device)
a belay device
a prussic & an additional crab for tying off the prussic too your harness, though some would say this isn't completely necessary more of a just in case.
a harness
something for your anchor most probably a sling or a piece of tied of tat (that's climber talk for off the reel climbing tape that's tied as opposed to a sewn sling). You'd be unlikely to leave anything more expensive than that behind unless it was a life & death situation.
Edit - further to the above I can't be arsed carrying this sort of gear around with me for day to day skiing even though i do the vast majority of my skiing off piste. I'll only carry it if i know I'm going to be skiing on crevassed glacial terrain or skiing a line where i'm likely to need to abseil e.g. poubelle on the grands montets or any one of a number of lines in La grave for instance.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
frank4short, so the difference between what I listed and yours is what....1 prussik, 1 crab, 1 sling, so not much....and you've added a belay device? But I can make up a belay or abseil with an Italian hitch and back it up with the prussik and crab - or it could be used for other stuff - e.g. ascending a rope if necessary. And the extra sling (different length to the first) adds a bit more flexibility for finding a suitable anchor. So pretty similar lists.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If you ab... tie knots in the ends of the rope first (don't alway work with a figure of 8 abseil device though).
One long ice screw, some cord and a length of wire and you can just make V threads in pure ice.
A tiny lightweight ascending device is the Tibloc, but a prussik cord is more versatile.
For minimum kit carry a small light ice axe and learn how to brake with it. You can also chop footholds in hard snow or ice.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
i like frank4short's list. if it's emergency only kit you can probably replace the harness with a few slings - not comfortable but lighter, cheaper, and probably more versatile. A belay device is so cheap and small nowadays it's probably just better to get one although it is true to say an italian hitch could be used instead. The belay device will be easier to use and nicer if you end up having to ascend (using your prussiks). Having some tat handy is always going to make your life easier.
i'm sure if you were creative you could make do without an ice-screw in most places. I think that's kind of the key here. You'll want to get pretty familiar with all the guff in case you need to use it. And invariably when you need it you're going to need to be creative with it.
Franks4short - you could make the (rescue) list shorter and lighter by using a c-drag system. Rope, pulley, crab (depending on anchor type). Tie off rope to anchor, clip pulley to object to be moved. Run rope in a c shape from anchor, through pulley to pulling team. Gives you a 2:1 mechanical advantage, 3:1 if you add a vector pull. The z drag is supposed to be 3:1 (if you use pulleys, less if you just use crabs).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I love this thread its like learning a new language
I guess the OP posted literally - they were actually looking for stuff to get them out of a physical hole, not just a metaphorical one
Megamum, Actually i think he was thinking more about how to get down a cliff as opposed to out of a hole. Though the 2 lists of equipment i listed were for either getting out of a crevasse, well to be precise for rescuing someone else out of a crevasse or making an abseil to surmount a cliff or other drop.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Balls - MTFU and send it!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Gotta say this thread is the most interesting thread this DECADE!
I'm going on a winter mountaineering course with the Uni Climbing club in the end of Feb in the Cairngorms. Not gonna be doing any proper ice climbing or anything, just learning the ropes, but it is gonna be epic!
This tread has given me a good idea about what sort of things to expect, but what sort of techniques should i expect/ask to learn.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
jwhiteley1, Mostly it'll be basic winter skills. This will involve basic walking with ice axes & crampons. Ice axe arrests. Walking on a short rope. Stuff like that, basically look up any of the outdoor centres winter skills course syllabuses should give you an idea of what you are likely to learn.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Remember you also have to consider hydration, so make sure you have a canteen full of shitty ditchwater and a length of rubber tubing.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
), abseiling down something immediately gets rid of the option to retrace your steps unless you want to start rock climbing in ski boots
This is the trouble with using metaphors... (but that said, one can imagine situations where you can climb out of holes using a rope...)
