 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
latest bulletin from Henry's Avalanche Talk highlights a recent exercise in Canada to test transceivers.
link here: http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/2009_Transceiver_Test.pdf
In summary, the 'new' digital / 3 antenna transceivers such as Ortovox S1 do very well, are measurably better than older 2 antenna ones, and much better than 'old' transceivers such as the F1.
Also of interest is the significant difference in performance between 'expert' and 'novice' users... the difference being much greater than the difference between models. (avg find times 1:13 for expert d3 users, and 2:59 for 'novice' S1 users)
thoughts?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Practice, Practice, and yes more practice, funny though how there is so much focus on multiple burials yet they are 1% of all avy burials. It is good to see which transceivers are the most user friendly. Having a F1 I do appreciate the way it attaches to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd disregard results for a novice with an F1 as I don't think even Ortovox would steer a novice toward them. Main conclusion seems to be the pros are faster with everything so practice is all. If I was buying today I'd buy a newer but proven digital 3x beacon. Don't know whether to upgarde yet?
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hamilton, haven't used the s1 but was advised strongly against buying it (not by a rep or shop BTW) as it is too complex for the ordinary joes like me....i was told it could hinder a search operation rather than aid it and i opted for the m2 instead (it was half the price too!) ...i do realise that i need to put in many hours of practise to get the best out of my transceiver,which i will do, but thought it prudent to go with the less frills option. i dont want to be in a situation where i need my wits about me and forgetting how to use my transceiver properly because of its complex nature.....
okbye
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 7-12-09 23:35; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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S1 is idiot proof, even my wife who is a technaphobe managed to use it to find a beacon in under 2 mins. She had never used a transciever before. She cant even work her phone properly
It really is a case of open and follow the arrow/circle, far less complex than even a tracker IMHO (and I have used a tracker). no need to worry about flux lines or spikes
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madmole, Totally agree, in our practice sessions in the avalanch park last season, my S1 romped over everything else, like you say, open the lid, follow the arrow. One of the guides I was with was gobsmacked with the S1. In a couple of cases, I walked straight to the spot and got he 'thing' first probe.
I have tried a Tracker DTS, I felt this was quite difficult to interperate correctly.
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madmole, interesting....i was told the exact opposite!.... we live and learn..............
okbye
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I also like the clear display for multiples
In a major rescue you really could say to some folks, probe 20m over there for target 2 and 15m that way for number 3 while I find number 1. The display really does allow you to visualize where they are buried right from first contact. No other unit can do this due to the arrow method they use rather the map the S1 uses
Having said that I also like the Pulse and DSP, but they are more complex to use
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowpatrol, TBO, I think a lot to do with it is cost. The S1 is expensive. People buy the cheaper ones and say they will practice, but don't, this has been really evident at the avalanch park.
Assuming the tranceiver test in the OP is correct, then the S1 is [much] better in novices' hands.. that's def. me. However the S1 was 'beaten' in the hands of experts with just about everything bar a wet stick. It's your choice.
At the end of the day, any [tranceiver] is better than none as they all transmit equally, and lets face it, most people on 'here' are more likely to rely on transmitting rather than receiving / searching, in the very unlikely circumstance that we will actually have to use one in anger.
Al'
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allanm, seems a bit harsh. I, and the people I ride with, practice fairly regularly. You won't see us in a beacon park though as we're more likely to do it somewhere at the bottom of the hill on a down day or in the evening. Or even back in the UK in some sand dunes or somewhere. As for only needing them to transmit who, pray tell, is going to dig us out if we don't do it ourselves?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Looking at the results the S1 in experts hands beat the Pulse and ALL beat the F1 by miles. The S1 was also the most consistant in times, others had faster runs but also more slower runs. They conclude that there is very little in it when it comes to multiple antenae units, but that the F1 was crud even in expert hands
In the UK, Ski club of Great Britain members can get the S1 at a price below the Pulse and Pieps unit (these are also harder to get hold of), so there seems to be more of these units in Europe
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Swirly wrote: |
| allanm, seems a bit harsh. I, and the people I ride with, practice fairly regularly. You won't see us in a beacon park though as we're more likely to do it somewhere at the bottom of the hill on a down day or in the evening. |
Soz, don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, I'm sure there are plenty who do practice and become proficient, but, in my limited experiance, that's not what I have seen. Mostly, I've been to the 'park' with guides prior to going 'out' so there's always a mix of people and equipment, it's interesting to see the results, especially these of the small groups who have soley DTS Trackers.
| Swirly wrote: |
| allanm, As for only needing them to transmit who, pray tell, is going to dig us out if we don't do it ourselves? |
Assuming you go off-piste with a guide, it's far more likely the guide's going to be doing the searching / digging than you.
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allanm, just out of interest - do you have any hard evidence for that statement about relative likelihoods of the guide not being buried vs a punter?
Interesting - I had been thinking of getting a Pulse next - might have a think about the S1 now.
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You know it makes sense.
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stoatsbrother, From my experience (depending on the definition of 'guide') it's the other way round.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good link.
However I dont agree with the posted 'summary' & 'conclusions'.
Looking at actual test results (page 5) the F1 is actually one of the fastest beacons when used by a mountain guide.
However the average time for the F1 (1.56) is simply skewed by 2 of testers taking over 3 minutes.
Whoever wrote that study needs to do a basic course in statistics before interpreting their data!
| Quote: |
| In the hands of a knowledgeable user there was only a small difference in search times |
^ Would have been a more sensible conclusion....
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think the data just showed that the F1 needs a skilled user, novices need not apply.
The newer units do not depend on years of practice. I'd actually say for the S1 you could use it effectively after reading the manual, or being told "it opens like a flip phone, follow the arrow"
Of course the F1 is cheap and so is the unit most likely to be supplied en mass to patrollers, which is OK as we hope they practice. Its not a unit suitable for the once or twice a year brigade (like me). But although the F1 did get fast times, it also got slow times (even with the experts) it has the largest variation of times, so that shows its practice level or some alignments that make a difference. The S1 is very consistant on times, which shows its ease of use or lack of susceptability to alignment.
Mind you you can get two F1's for the price of an S1, which means you can practice and also guarantee your mates has one
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, Nope, no hard evidence. Got to know quite a few instructors / guides last season though... but no.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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allanm, well - I am guessing the Guides who got buried - and who were relying on their poorly trained clients to dig them out - were more difficult to get to know...!
One thing which does stand out from that report - is the danger to Slednecks in Canada.
Haggis_Trap, they did actually give standard deviations for the samples which were large enough to do so... the question is surely whether the wider variation was down to user factors or beacon factors?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
allanm, well - I am guessing the Guides who got buried - and who were relying on their poorly trained clients to dig them out - were more difficult to get to know...!
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Stats and damn stats!! LOL!
You may be entirely right, but, Perhaps it would be interesting to asceratin just how many guides were 'buried' last season.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting results.
What is missing is the burial depths and transceiver burial angle.
Both these can confuse dual antenna transceivers and confuse a searcher on a single antenna transceiver.
I thought 3 antenna transceivers primarily are to over come the problem of deep burials and vertically buried transceivers?
allanm, Mentioned the avalanche park in les arcs. I used this a few time this year and found some of the test beepers buried quite deep on one occasion (big dump).. I could locate the deeper ones much faster than the tracker (i have f1), but again this comes down to understanding flux lines. It would be nice to have one of the probes in the park to be vertical... that would sort the men from the boys!
I also wonder how much practice it takes to change a novice to an expert. I have seen some completely clueless people who even after (apparently) reading the manual for an F1 still think the arrow points toward the burial. Where as other less intellectually impaired click immediately in the basic understanding on how it works.
snowpatrol, I would like to know who told you to stay clear of the S1. There is only one person I would think that would say that is you bank manager  I think its astonishing that within the constraints of this test 10 novice users can find burials under 4 mins when they completely failed with the F1.
I would like a d3 or s1 but have to stick to my F1 and practice.
tux
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tuxpoo,well firstly, a guide in vail warned me off....then i was researching them, as there were a few on ebay a while back, and i went onto a suppliers website and they rated all their transceivers for idiotproofness... they said under no circumstances should anyone other than an expert with transceivers, which i am not, or a technohead, which i am not, should get one....their reasoning was that in the event of you needing to use it in a pressure situation, when everything goes out the window, you need to be very experienced to get the most out of the s1...its ok you guys p!$$ing about thinking you are the best thing since sliced bread and slapping each other on the back because you found a beacon in an avalanche park...wait till it happens in real life and you are p!$$1ng your pants and fumbling around the place crying your lamps out...thats when you need less to think about i.e. a no frills beacon......
okbye
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Hate to agree with snowpatrol but the reason lots of pros use the f1 is not because its cheap but AIUI because it is no nonsense, no ambiguity between search and transmit modes, mechanical switches and direct data both audible and visual for a skilled user to use rather than relying on digital processing software/reboots etc.
I am absolutely certain that a novice has a better chance of getting lucky with a more modern digital beacon but until there is a clear view on what the gold standard is I'll propbably hold off buying one.
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snowpatrol, I think your 'a guide in vail' was in fact a 'guide in cloud cuckoo land', almost certainly, he had never used an S1....
On opening the S1, which is not toooo difficult - big orange button, for most, even in gloves, it goes into digital receiver mode. Arrow points in direction of strongest signal. You walk in that direction, it [the arrow] has quite a big 'head' so shouldn't be any confusion there. When close (<1M) the arrow changes to circles, you move in order to decrease the size of the circles. If you can operate a lavatory correctly, all this shouldn't prove to be too much of a problem.
However, if you do want a challenge, you can switch the S1 in to analogue mode, so it is basically the same as an F1 / Tracker, you'll then need a knowledge of flux lines.....
Lighten up!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yep, all the anaologues are far more complicated than an S1, you have to turn down the volume which means a) knowing you need to do it and b) where it is. Apart from flipping open the lid (same as any flip phone) on the S1 there are no buttons or interactions at all in search mode
Cant see how under stress you can get confused with an S1, it just points to the burial, you dont have to push/slide/turn anything
Only if there are 2 victims do you need to push a button once youve found one to start on the other, but the line from the button to the mark victim symbol is obvious even if you forget which button (in fact you can find the second without even doing that, but unit will point to first one till you get nearer to second, but you can see where they are in relation to the world even while its pointing to 1)
OK if you tilt it on its side while searching it will show a level sign (what does an F1 do?) and if you shake it around it will put a stop hand up for a second till you let it get its bearing again (Again what will an F1 do?) but anyone who has read the manual, used any beacon before or ever practiced wont get to see these 2 conditions and at least it warns you unlike most units
All I can suggest is that you download the S1 instructions, and or borrow one, and play and make your own mind up rather than listening to folks who dont seem to have ever used one
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allanm, amigo.... i'm jus telling you a god damned story about being warned off s1's......i'm not knocking them.....i dont have a f***ing clue about transceivers so i wanted one with minimal fuss....i'm sure the s1 is the bees f***ing knees.....there now, are you happy, or do you want blood?......
okbye
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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All
glad to have stimulated some debate.
Interestingly, no-ones really commented on:
- the relatively small difference in novice performance (except the F1) - If my limited stats u/s is correct, the ~30s difference between, e.g. the DTS Tracker (what I have) and the 'gold std' (my contentious choice of phrase!) S1 is less than the Std Dev on the S1, so, I think, is statistically insignificant.
Does anyone know how many 'multiple burials' occur.... (amonst skiers, and / or 'slednecks'?)
Other than snowpatrol, no-one has thought of the impact of 'real' stress on these timings - wonder what the figures would be like if the testers were told, e.g. they'll lose £100 for every minute/part thereof spent searching.... (cf airline evac studies, where subjects are financially induced to leave the plane in a 'realistic' manner)
As for individual results 'skewing' - the whole point of a 'large' sample is to reduce impact of this.... personally, you have to hope that the guy looking for you isn't one of those 'skewed' ones.
Haggis Trap
not sure I follow you:
"Looking at actual test results (page 5) the F1 is actually one of the fastest beacons when used by a mountain guide. "
er, the avg time is longer than all the others.... so it is the slowest, on average.
However the average time for the F1 (1.56) is simply skewed by 2 of testers taking over 3 minutes.
- it actually suggests that the reasons for that skew are worthy of further investigation. User error? alignment? 'body' location? something else?
Whoever wrote that study needs to do a basic course in statistics before interpreting their data!
- as, perhaps, do all the people reading it.
'in the hands of a knowledgeable user'.... my view is that the article, and this discussion, is aimed at the 'novice' users, as knowledgeable ones are both experienced and have tx's..... as such, my comment was aimed at highlighting the diff in times between novices (who presumably don't practice much), and 'experienced', who clearly do both practice, AND, importantly, understand what they are doing (for example, my SO is not really interested in learning about flux lines - does that mean she should not go off piste?)
keep the debate coming....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| hamilton wrote: |
Other than snowpatrol, no-one has thought of the impact of 'real' stress on these timings - wonder what the figures would be like if the testers were told, e.g. they'll lose £100 for every minute/part thereof spent searching.... (cf airline evac studies, where subjects are financially induced to leave the plane in a 'realistic' manner)
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Maybe when running drills people should put down 10 euros and fastest time wins the kitty... that should raise the adrenalin levels.
But I for one would not put myself against an S1 with my F1.
I also watched the S1 vids on the ortovox site. Altho in german the demo of switching from transmitter to search was pretty clearly about as simple as opening a book. I think we can conclude the guide vail was mistaken.
IM still curious how much practice (in terms of hours) it would take for a novice with average brain power (obviously helmet wearer) , to achieve the dizzy heights of expert on the F1?
Maybe more emphasis should be place on education rather than technology?
In particular, what the hell do you do once you have located the person? dig down? dig round? panic?
I think everyone should help boarders build a kicker sometime, just to get the idea of how much effort it is moving snow with a shovel.
tux
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tuxpoo, it will soon be time for the monthly posting of the link to the paper on "strategic shovelling"...
As you imply - easy to get "transceiver fever" and not learn to dig properly or organise search strategy - when that is where much of the delay seems to be now. I am not an expert but still get surprised at people practicing digging starting kneeling directly on top of the "body".
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You know it makes sense.
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Good point, given a modern 3 antenae tranceiver the search is the easy bit and often the first probe will hit the target (easy to get within 10cm of max signal with S1). Its then that the most crucial bit begins
Digging snow caves for lunch I find is excellent practice
Snow saw can also speed things up a lot if the slide has compacted, you can take it out in larger chunks than a normal shovel full. But thinking about is and going in from the side helps a lot as does having more than one person to shovel. In reality you have about 5-7 mins to shift about a tonne to 2 tonnes of snow
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stoatsbrother, Thanks, I had not see the link previously. That certainly is a great paper.
Tux
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My best stress test came in a little avy awareness comp which I rocked up to by accident because I saw someone I knew skiing off in that direction. So I borrowed an X1 which I had never used before and entered. I was super quick to the site - e.g 1st or second place to within 3m and then just completely lost it on the fine bracketing. In the end I resorted to randomly probing to a next to last place first round finish. My lesson learnt was that in real life I'd want a bunch of people probing if I was that crap with the transceiver.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've always found my Barryvox amazingly quick when i've had to use it... luckily not often but have done so many tests with it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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All, I think with ski club discount the S1 is 340GBP and the F1 about 1/2 that. From all the information available, it seems pretty obvious to me that the S1 would most likely be the best for 'most' of us. It's an extra £170 though. Decent jacket? - well nearly. One ski? 1/2 a decent board? It's simply a matter of what price you put on yours or, more importantly, in the case of searching, someone else's....life. Like snow chains and insurance though.. chances are that none of us will ever be in the situation where we have to use one of these things in anger.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowpatrol wrote: |
hamilton, haven't used the s1 but was advised strongly against buying it (not by a rep or shop BTW) as it is too complex for the ordinary joes like me....i was told it could hinder a search operation rather than aid it and i opted for the m2 instead (it was half the price too!) ...i do realise that i need to put in many hours of practise to get the best out of my transceiver,which i will do, but thought it prudent to go with the less frills option. i dont want to be in a situation where i need my wits about me and forgetting how to use my transceiver properly because of its complex nature.....
okbye |
The M2 is one of the most confusing beacon for a beginner to use, especially in multiple search.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PJSki, oh thats great news....just bought 2 of them...one for me and one for her ....thanks for that.........
okbye
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fatbob, Yup - you need a method to your probing and an understanding of flux lines, burial depth issues, slope profile, digging methodology etc. It aint easy.
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snowpatrol, Ebay??? They'd make a good Xmas pressie for these that 'don't know'. Good 'ad' and you'll probably get your money back, if not a bit more, especially as they are 'new'.
Nice to see you've 'calmed down' - can now see why you were wound up though..
Al'
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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allanm,...i'm not wound up about the m2 at all...i got a good deal...2 x m2's = £300...2 x s1's = £600...you do the math....
okbye
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| snowpatrol wrote: |
allanm,...i'm not wound up about the m2 at all...i got a good deal...2 x m2's = £300...2 x s1's = £600...you do the math....
okbye |
You saved enough to buy a coffin. 
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FAQ
