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Ski/binding ajustments

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Any experts who can give me some advice on this?

I need some advice on adjusting bindings on skis. Whilst fitting boot size is fairly straight forward can anyone offer advice on how you should ajust the tightness of bindings. I understand that this is dependent upon your weight and ability so here are the exacts:

male 72kg intermediate on 180cm carvers
female advanced intermediate on 160cm carvers

All useful advice would be very welcome!
Thanks
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ncking, welcome to snowheads, the answer is really that you shouldn't do that yourself unless you know what you are doing, it also requires you to know what sole length the boot has as it too has an effect, in general any ski shop will usually be happy to check the settings for you for free just don't go in when they are busy and it will just take them 30 seconds or so to do. there are several adjustment charts arround and depending on which binding you are using you should really use the makers own chart, however if you do a search on the internet for the DIN settings for ski bindings you may well find a chart out there
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Oh, and nck, your skis are too long!
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Wear The Fox Hat,
You never know - he might be 6'6" and very thin wink
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
mistermouse, yeah, except modern ski length is more to do with weight than height. At 72kg, I'd be thinging of 160 for a male.
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mistermouse, wouldn't matter. Modern skis rely on being decambered, which is all about weight and forces from the turn. As an intermediate, a skier cannot get enough force from speed to overcome the camber of the ski.

That said, ncking, may I suggest in the strongest terms possible that you have them adjusted by a certified binding technician? There is more to adjusting the length than you realize. In fact, correct forward pressure (adjusted by adjusting the distance between toe and heel pieces) may be more important than release settings, within a reasonable range.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Wear The Fox Hat,
Oops - busy displaying my lack of knowledge again Blush
So - what length would you reckon for myself as an aggressive intermediate of 80 kilos (naked!) on Freeride skis?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
mistermouse, well, let's see, I'm a few kgs more, and, well, ssh has seen me ski, my current piste ski is the Head iXRC1100SW in 170. My purely powder ski is the K2 Seth Pistol in 179.

I'd guess a good starting point would be the Rossi B2 in 170.
Next one to try would be Volkl 5 Stars in 168

Volkl 724 EXP as a possibility (170), but you might want to wait a year or two before going for it.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
i've actually been offered a pair of Stockli stormrider xl , which come in at 164 or 174 and longer so was wondering which might be best
i'm using a 2yr old pair of 4stars at mo in 168
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mistermouse, how much time do you spend in powder? (I don't mean the sides of the pistes, I mean going through the trees, or off piste) if you spend more than half your time in pow, then go 174, otherwise I'd go for the 164.
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mistermouse, that's a beefy ski! Wear The Fox Hat, do you think that might be a bit much? I'd recommend shorter, given the ski level.

Or a Fischer RX6 in 170...

Wear The Fox Hat, yes, I have seen you ski. Right at me in a tuck--on those Pistols!!!!! Shocked
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
ssh, yeah, I guess so, the 164 would be the call, the more I think about it. Maybe he'd like the Head iXRC800 as anther option.
Oh yes, the human slalom and me on my purpose built, narrow waist, small radius slalom skis. snowHead
That was a laugh, particularly because I was a bit distracted at the start of it.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Thanks for the help guys, off to St Anton in the morning so looking to try a few skis on Monday
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
mistermouse, have a great trip - I won't be skiing for another 28 days Sad
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
there are several adjustment charts arround and depending on which binding you are using you should really use the makers own chart

All the makers charts should be copies of DIN 7881-5 Winter sports equipment; release bindings for alpine downhill skiing; adjustment scale for release values, otherwise they ain't DIN settings. Note that the maximum DIN setting is 10 - anything above this is non-standard and maker-specific: that's why they are marked differently, commonly in RED.
Quote:
however if you do a search on the internet for the DIN settings for ski bindings you may well find a chart out there

Usual one is http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/imgs/dinbig.jpg but note the warnings on http://www.terrymorse.com/ski/din.html
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Wear The Fox Hat wrote:
That was a laugh, particularly because I was a bit distracted at the start of it.
I could tell when you got into it. So did I. 'Twas fun, indeed! Almost as good as real gates!
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
ncking, don't even be tempted to do it on your own unless you really don't value your legs very much...
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Also, by adjusting the bindings yourself, you have no comeback if anything goes wrong (should you be feeling litigious at the time)
ski techs are trained by the binding manufacturers, and shops have insurance, because if something goes wrong with the binding, it can have a major effect on your health.
I think it is irresponsible of Terry Morse to publish that information, as people will look at it, and decide they can set up their own bindings. (perhaps ignoring the fact that the information is 9 years out of date)
According to that sheet, my releases should be at 8.5. Now, I might then decide that the advice there is only for average skiers, and I have bigger cajones than that, so I might set them to 9 or 10. But, I know a bit about bindings, having been trained to set them up. I wouldn't go above 7.5 on piste, and maybe 8 off.

I think I have mentioned this before, but it was interesting at the ESA to talk to Eric DesLauriers about his bindings. He has appeared in several ski movies, and written books. His bindings are at 9.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I, too, am a certified binding tech. I have mounted and adjusted bindings for years. Please don't do it yourself! There's more to it than you think (including testing to make sure that they do what they're supposed to do when you're done adjusting it).
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Well I disagree – to a point. I think it is irresponsible of manufacturers not to publish up to date information on their bindings and make this available to their customers. I have seldom experienced laboratory-like conditions when seeing a skiing technician setting the DINs on skis, especially when I've witnessed others picking up their hire skis at the beginning of a half-term holiday. I would rather trust my own analysis and care than take comfort from being able to sue someone else (but each to his/her own). However, when it comes to mounting bindings, well… I have tried it, out of idle curiosity, on a pair of scrap skis and I think it is nearly impossible to get it right without the proper tools and template. I had three attempts at it before I got them right(ish) and I would never have skied on them anyway – not least because they were full of holes by this time!
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jtr, they do make up-to-date information available to their customers - just not to the end users. You work on the assumption that an end user is intelligent. That is a VERY DANGEROUS assumption. You may doubt me, but I'd suggest you look on other forums, and ask there about what settings the guys use. A lot of them are skiing with bindings set to 12+, and then blame the binding when they injure themselves. and why do they set them so high? Well, there's a lot of complaints about bindings pre-releasing. I would guestimate 90% of these are due to poor technique - something a lesson would cure. But you don't want to tell a guy who thinks he's an expert that maybe he needs a lesson.


You may not see lab-like conditions in ski shops, but if you have bought a pair of skis, the bindings should be signed off by the tech who set them up (including info about the settings he used)
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Wear The Fox Hat, is quite correct, I've got the experience to know what to set my bindings to, but I always get them checked regularly by a ski tech to ensure the bindings are working properly, they have equipment to accurately check release settings that 99.9999% of people won't have, in fact I actually use the lowest settings possible for my weight and performance and yet suffer no pre release problems even when skiing at speed because my technique is good enough, that means that should I fall my skis come off at once, given that I fell once this year I can live with that wink

Now I ski with my bindings set to 6 ! for my weight, experience sole length and so on they should be set between 6.5 and 8.5 so technically I'm skiing with my bindings slightly too light but I have no problems.

My advice is still to let the technicians set your skis up for you and check the bindings are performing correctly, however by all means do an internet search and find a binding chart so you can double check, I did so that I could check settings on hire skis at dry slopes when I visit them as many seem to have no concept of just what bindings should be set to
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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It comes down to experience, what you ski, whether a pre-release is desirable,all sorts of things.
I go around 7.5 to 8 but if you can ski a 6 and don't fall over that makes sense. But if the terrain was
challenging and you didn't want a fall or to lose a ski you would have to factor in that as well.
After a while it is knowing what works for you in the conditions that you ski.
But the general manufactor's guides are good places to start as is a tech to set it up.
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JT, very true, I up my settings if the conditions or how I'm skiing suggest that I should, those people who permanently up their bindings to the maximum setings are the same ones that complain the loudest when they get horrific leg injuries because their skis don't come off, I wonder if that would effect their insurance ?
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Quote:
I think it is irresponsible of Terry Morse to publish that information


Terry is only providing a copy of information that is already publicly available in an international standard. If you are saying he is irresponsible, then surely you are arguing that the standards bodies are irresponsible?

Quote:
when it comes to mounting bindings .. I think it is nearly impossible to get it right without the proper tools


It is hard without the correct template. If you are moving bindings from one pair of skis to another, then it is possible to copy the hole locations across. Alternatively I have in the past used binding display plates to get the hole alignment correct when a jig is unavailable. But all this depends on you having sufficient DIY skills. However more and more ski/binding manufacturers are going towards systems whereby the holes are already predrilled or they use inserts instead, and so a jig becomes unnecessary and it is far easier to mount bindings - which you may consider good or bad!

I *do* agree that anyone who does (their own) binding work needs to know what they are doing otherwise injuries could result: but the same can be said doing other work on your ski gear. If you don't have the necessary skills, anything can be dangerous.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Now let's get one thing sorted out. I buy the bindings. I am the customer, not "just" the end user; it is my money. The shop is the selling agent. I have looked at other forums and seen all the guff about 12+ DIN settings but I don't see why I should be denied access to technical data just because others may misuse it (although why this should lead anyone to go for 12+ DIN is a logic leap that is beyond me). That is the Mr Angry bit over. I endorse the view that people who are not comfortable/sure about setting DINs should get the ski shop to do it but these settings can only be double checked if the tables are freely available. It is worthwhile witnessing the practices of many resort ski hire shops on a Saturday/Sunday when they are hit by a bus load of customers at a time. "Boot", screwdriver inserted into rear binding to adjust length, "Weight?" (sometimes it is just a look to determine weight), DINs set, boots strong-armed out of binding and then "Next
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Rob, if the info is publicly available, then why is he the only one to make it publicly available on a web site?

Here are the relevant standards for ski bindings:

ISO 5355, Publication date:2003-11
Alpine ski-boots - Requirements and test methods

ISO 8061, Publication date:1992-04
Alpine ski-bindings; selection of release torque values

ISO 8364, Publication date:2000-06
Alpine skis and bindings - Binding mounting area - Requirements and test methods

ISO 6004, Publication date:1991-08
Alpine skis; ski binding screws; requirements

ISO 6005, Publication date:1991-12
Alpine skis; ski binding screws; test methods

ISO 9838, Publication date:1991-07
Alpine ski-bindings; test soles for ski-binding tests

ISO 11088, Publication date:2004-04
Assembly, adjustment and inspection of an alpine ski/binding/boot (S-B-B) system

ISO 13993, Publication date:2001-09
Rental ski shop practice - Sampling and inspection of complete and incomplete alpine ski-binding-boot systems in rental applications
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jtr, a very good reason why I don't hire skis or boots!
If you want to get a hold of the standards, there is the list above. You can order them through BSI, ISO or DIN. Cost is around £25 each, I think.
It is available, but it is copyright information, so publication of it without permission is illegal (just in case you were thinking of doing that)

As an aside, I'm going to take the seatbelts out of my car, and replace them myself. Is that a good idea? And why doesn't the car maker give me a copy of the following when I buy it?

ISO/TR 1417:1974
Automobiles -- Anchorages for seat belts
ISO 2958:1973
Road vehicles -- Exterior protection for passenger cars
ISO 3208:1974
Road vehicles -- Evaluation of protrusions inside passenger cars
ISO 7862:2004
Road vehicles -- Sled test procedure for the evaluation of restraint systems by simulation of frontal collisions
ISO/TR 13214:1996
Road vehicles -- Child restraint systems -- Compilation of regulations and standards
ISO 13215-2:1999
Road vehicles -- Reduction of misuse risk of child restraint systems -- Part 2: Requirements and test procedures for correct installation (panel method)
ISO 13215-3:1999
Road vehicles -- Reduction of misuse risk of child restraint systems -- Part 3: Prediction and assessment of misuse by Misuse Mode and Effect Analysis (MMEA)
ISO 13216-1:1999
Road vehicles -- Anchorages in vehicles and attachments to anchorages for child restraint systems -- Part 1: Seat bight anchorages and attachments
ISO 13216-2:2004
Road vehicles -- Anchorages in vehicles and attachments to anchorages for child restraint systems -- Part 2: Top tether anchorages and attachments
ISO/TR 13219:1995
Road vehicles -- Risk of thoracic injury associated with Hybrid III sternal deflection due to shoulder belt loading
ISO/TR 14645:1998
Road vehicles -- Test procedures for evaluating child restraint system interactions with deploying air bags
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Rob, if the info is publicly available, then why is he the only one to make it publicly available on a web site?


Because, as you then answer you own question, it's copyright. Not all information in the public domain is available free online. Standards are available at many public libraries, or you can get your own copy by (shock! horror!) paying for it, either by download from (e.g.) www.bsi.org.uk, or by visiting a branch of TSO (The Stationary Office) or other standards retailer.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
RobW, apologies, I didn't check out the copyright information before the original post.
So, do you still believe he is not irresponsible for publishing it?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
He's only as irresponsible are BSI, DIN, ISO and all the other standards bodies are for publishing it.

The minor difference is that he's published it on the web, and not in print, and therefore it has easier accessibility for those who have internet access. Those who don't have to go to their local library instead. Does this make the library irresponsible for allowing access? Puzzled
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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RobW, no, but they probably LEGALLY purchased it for publication, and would include the full wording of the documentation with it, not just the chart.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Wear The Fox Hat, Well, as it happens, when I got a new Volvo 850 estate with the optional rear facing seats a few years ago, the garage not only fitted the seats and the belts, they also supplied the instructions. I transferred these to the replacement vehicle (same model) and subsequently removed them using the highly specialised tools required viz, torque wrench, socket set and torx bits. Presumably you also want to ban the publication of Haynes car workshop manuals? Do you change your own car wheels, use the correct torque setting or do you call out an "expert" to do it for you? Think of the safety aspects of getting that wrong. Oddly enough my car handbook tells me how to do it.

In any event, I am not interested in the definitions of the standards (and even less interested in seeing a list of them) but I am interested in the implementation of them and in my opinion and experience I implement the bindings DIN standards better than most of the ski hire shops I've seen.
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No! I think it is great that Haynes manuals are available, and allow people to work on there cars. But cars also have to pass MOT tests.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you look carefully you will find at least 3 tables on the web on 3 different web sites, at least that was how many I found last time I looked
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jtr, do you have the specialized equipment necessary to test the bindings once adjusted to make sure that they release within the tolerance necessary in every release direction specified by the manufacturer?

There's a ton on ski safety here: http://www.vermontskisafety.com/ including this manual for their test system: http://www.vermontskisafety.com/faq_trade/VTcal04.pdf
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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ssh, This "do you have the specialized equipment" is spurious. Visit a European ski rental shop during a typical change-over day and experience the real world. Any suggestion that these places do any sophisticated testing once the bindings have been adjusted is nonsense; it simply does not happen. Consequently, I am left with the choice of trusting the typical shop method I described in an earlier post or using my own judgment and skill in conjunction with the published DIN tables (which I have a right to access). What irritates me, is the attempt by some parties to restrict my legitimate choice possibly based on some misplaced technical conceit or wish for financial gain.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
jtr, you are still comparing rental bindings and setting them up, to having your own bindings on your own skis. I don't believe that is a good comparison.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I am not the one making the comparison; you are. I have my own skis (probably for the same reasons as you) but I do note that you are content to let the people who rent, enjoy a lower safety regime than those who have had their bindings set up under the laboratory conditions. Each to his own.
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jtr, yes, that's correct. And a lot of that is due to rental bindings. They are different to normal bindings by having various adjustments to allow them to fit a variety of boot sizes.

But then again, do you think that a rental boot is as good a fit as a purchased one?
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