 Poster: A snowHead
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On the Austrian news yesterday, plans were unveiled to introduce a ´Ski Licence´; made up of three parts, an equipment check, bindings, settings, etc, a theory of ski conduct knowledge and a first aid test.Although in the early stages yet, and I do think its actually not a bad idea, I dont see how it can be enforced.Could it work?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DAB wrote: |
| I dont see how it can be enforced.Could it work? |
I've been waiting years for this news. Other sports like sub-aqua and hang-gliding (I think) have a more structured approach to qualifying participants.
It could become part of a ski holiday by the lift company demanding sight of a licence before issuing/selling a pass. It could also combine with proof of insurance before anyone's allowed to access the runs.
The mountains would still be free to anyone to access without these regulations, by hiking up the hill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Sockpuppet, Do you not think it could put first time skiiers off,I mean all that hassle of learning for a sport you dont even know you would like(  inconceivable to us lot, I know!)
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BTW; quite an unsubtle name for you isn´t it 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The problem with something like PADI is that they take a cut of every course ran and reduce the independence of instructors. Would it really be a good thing to see lesson costs increasing and everybody having to go through an enforced snowdome style levels system with a certificate at each stage? Mentorship and logbook signing after each day before progressing to the next level? I'd have been put off before I started.
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DAB, when I began skiing in 1959 it was pretty standard for people to ski for a couple of days without using lifts. Your instructor had you side-stepping up the bunny slope for little runs down, and you repeated that until you'd got your snowplough etc. together.
The idea of people (human projectiles) having unrestricted access to long runs from high lifts on day one, with no prior instruction, is a bit like sending people out into busy roads on motorised skateboards.
Yes, it makes superb sense for lift companies to maximise their income by maximising the anarchy. I think they're starting to realise that the golden goose is in its death throes, and that skiers (particularly families and nervous people) are staying away, in the interest of personal safety.
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There has also been the idea, although this time in Germany, of introducing´genuss´pistes(basically family pistes) where a speed limit is imposed, and anyone caught speeding would be fined.This again, while sounding good in theory, I think would be hard to impose, I mean, how can you tell how fast you are going? I have no idea.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 29-12-09 23:26; edited 1 time in total
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I think this is a sound idea to reduce the number of accidents etc.
Only problem is what will be the next step, random breathalysers tests for people on the home run after a few gluwheins in a mountain hut?
I think this could all be avoided if the pistes were patrolled in a much more highly visible way by the pisteurs i.e. piste police to request inconsiderate skiers / snowboarders and people on pistes way above their ability to leave the mountain to a safer area etc? Like a sin bin scheme but more scenic!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sounds idiotic to me, and a bureaucratic nightmare.
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rob@rar, I agree. It won't stop lunatics.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Rubbish idea. Not only will something (lift pass maybe?) treble in price to pay for it all, but it will clearly deter the mainstay of the ski industry, the holiday skier who just wants a week away from it all in the mountains every year.
All this stuff about accidents, they're still an extremely rare occurrence. Far more people per participant have accidents on bicycles. Is there any talk of licensing them?
Piste patrols during peak times might be a good idea, but someone will still have to pay for it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, laundryman, Agree it wouldn't stop idiots just like a driving licence doesn't stop speeding motorists. However skiing etiquette is not promoted enough during lessons. Interestingly when I sat my Snowsports England Instructor course years ago the skier code was discussed at length and promoted as part of the lesson plan. When I have sat similar BASI courses we have touched upon parts of it ( normally accident procedures ) but never fully discussed it.
A signed pass from a recognised ski school / centre stating that you are at a suitable standard to ski independantly and able to use the lifts would be possible before buying a lift pass. Beginners would not be affected as they would be in ski school and would hopefully by the end of the week have had their progression card signed off.
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rob@rar, if it's "idiotic bureauracy" to make ski slopes safer by licensing skiers then suggest something superior.
I work in an industry (live entertainment) where we're intensively trained to keep the public safe in a controlled environment. Ski slopes are heavily controlled in so many ways but completely uncontrolled in terms of who accesses them at any speeds, at any level of control (lack of control).
Believe it or not, people are looking to go on a relaxed ski holiday, enjoy that experience and return home in one piece (or separate jacket and pants). They're not seeking to get crippled by some untrained nutter colliding with them.
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
| They're not seeking to get crippled by some untrained nutter colliding with them. |
Presumably, it would be of great comfort to them to know that it was a trained nutter.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Only "licence to ski" that resorts and lift companies recognise is credit card shaped and that'll never change.
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some untrained nutter colliding with them
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Always the fear but very rarely the reality. Collision-avoidance is a built-in feature of most snowsporters and most comings together are low speed indirect brushes that cause no damage.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Collision-avoidance is a built-in feature of most snowsporters |
Have to admit I wasn't aware of that. I assume you're talking about repelling magnets or radar-based steering technology built into the skis. As always, Swiller, you're at least two steps ahead of me and the game.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Sockpuppet, Yes, it is built in (even in older models like you). Skier A sees Skier B converging on same trajectory. Both skiers instinctively take necessary action based on what their brain has calculated will happen if they don't. Some people turn the feature off or put it into sleep mode. As long as the other skiers have their systems on, there is no problem. I see very few collisions and last week none.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DAB wrote: |
| On the Austrian news yesterday, plans were unveiled to introduce a ´Ski Licence´; made up of three parts, an equipment check, bindings, settings, etc, a theory of ski conduct knowledge and a first aid test.Although in the early stages yet, and I do think its actually not a bad idea, I dont see how it can be enforced.Could it work? |
Well if Austria introduce such a thing unilaterally, the main effect will be to lose them a very large portion of the tourist income their economy relies on, as most 1 week per year skiers would just go elsewhere. I don't know how true it is, but I was once told by an Austrian that approximately 5% of their GDP comes from foreigners skiing.
If it were ever to be introduced in reality, it could only be done by agreement from all the main skiing nations.
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David Sockpuppet, judging by last Sunday I'd say the goldes goose is alive and well and living in 2Alpes. I fear you may be talking nonsense again. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Completely crazy idea that would be horrific news for the ski industry. Won't happen - the tour ops are too powerful and I expect would threaten to withdraw from any resort that introduced it.
The time and money cost of doing a first aid course alone is not insubstantial.
I don't think comparisons with scuba diving are fair - the risk of death or serious injury are substantially higher than with skiing. Anyway if you have a boat and equipment there's nothing to stop you diving where you like (with some exceptions eg dive sites in places such as national parks, where each boat may need a licence).
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It's interesting how some members of this intelligent ski forum are putting up the shutters, donning blinkers and otherwise ridiculing the idea of skier licensing. And yet so many people are injured - sometimes with life-long consquences - by the actions of untrained, reckless skiers.
It's assumed, from the opening post, this the idea of skier licensing would necessarily be mandatory ... yet the concept could be introduced on an optional basis in experimental terms. Testing was central to ski-schooling at one time. Tourists could take bronze, silver or gold tests to prove their competence as skiers, after days of instruction. The Ski Club of Great Britain had a highly-respected test structure of this type for much of its history, and its standards were higher than those adopted by the Swiss Ski School (for example).
Let's get serious about a future for skiing based on people being able to go out on mountains with less fear of lunatics. Ultimately, people will really have to understand that they will be screened before being allowed the privilege of participating in the greatest sport on earth.
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
| I work in an industry (live entertainment) where we're intensively trained to keep the public safe in a controlled environment. |
Last time I went to the opera there was a lot of coughing and sneezing. I don't think it's that controlled an environment.
You cannot legislate against stupid behaviour without destroying what you are trying to protect. While irresponsible skiing is deeply annoying it is not a major factor affecting the safety of everyone on the mountain. I would be happy to see pisteurs take a more proactive role in giving guidance, warnings and, in the very worst examples, removal of liftpasses for dangerous skiing. But introducing some form of driving licence for skiers is barking mad. It hasn't stopped dangerous driving on our roads, it won't stop dangerous skiing on our slopes. The first country that introduces such madness will, as others have said above, take a big hit on their tourist numbers.
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Oh my God. "Tourist numbers" might suffer. Oh my God.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Oh my God. "Tourist numbers" might suffer. Oh my God.
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It is what the ski industry is all about...
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
| Oh my God. "Tourist numbers" might suffer. Oh my God. |
You work in show business. Both words are equally important. No business, no show.
I work in the ski business. No business, no skiing. Anyone who doesn't recognise that is either a fool or a hankering after a time when only a very small number of wealthy people skied.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
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Oh my God. "Tourist numbers" might suffer. Oh my God.
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It is what the ski industry is all about... |
It may be what the ski industry is all about. It certainly isn't what skiing is all about.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| No business, no skiing. |
Perhaps from your point of view, but remember that skiing began with the hunting activities of migrant populations into Scandinavia, after the last Ice Age. Skiing began as a sport with people simply heading into the hills for some adventure and fun. That was anything but elitist.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Anyone who doesn't recognise that [skiing is a business] is either a fool or a hankering after a time when only a very small number of wealthy people skied. |
I'd hardly call what we think of as 'tourist skiing' as a sport for the working classes, but in places like Scotland you can still borrow or beg a pair of planks and have some fun, with very little money. This thread is about what seriously threatens that fun ... and ultimately the 'tourist industry'. The more visionary and sensible people in Alpine resorts are seriously concerned about reckless skiing and what to do about it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
| I'd hardly call what we think of as 'tourist skiing' as a sport for the working classes, |
Oh really! (said the working class boy from the South Wales valleys)
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| David Sockpuppet wrote: |
I work in an industry (live entertainment) where we're intensively trained to keep the public safe in a controlled environment. |
You didn't help organise JLS switching on the xmas lights in Birmingham by any chance?
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You know it makes sense.
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No, that was probably some local fairy
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Why do people bang on and on about collisions with 'nutters'? How often does it actually happen? In all my years of skiing, I've never witnessed it, nor heard from anyone else who has witnessed it. There has just been a handful of news stories. There are far more stories about people getting lost in avalanches or drunk people not making it back to their accommodation and suffering hypothermia.
Truth is, accidents happen, crossing the road is a hazardous activity. Life is full of hazards. Why do we need to legislate against the less common hazards?
Skiing, for most people, is a fun holiday in a completely different environment. People go to have an enjoyable holiday. Let's not lose sight of that with sensationalist theories.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Seriously, I think it's a great idea. But I agree with rob@rar,in that it would be a nightmare to set up.
There would need to be agreement between countries and resorts - I learn to ski in Japan, does Austria recognise Japan's certification?
It could be taken a step further too. Why not have a professional body grade every run at every resort, and have passes that restrict access to only those areas that you are able to ski with a degree of safety.
I think the scuba diving comparison is very good.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia, It happened to me on my 2nd holiday. being 'debriefed' by our instructor at the bottom of the nursery slope when over half of the group were taken out by an idiot who'd totally lost control.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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youspurs1,
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I think the scuba diving comparison is very good.
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Why? Scuba diving is potentially very very dangerous. One small mistake and you could be dead. Skiing just doesn't carry those risks - it is a pretty safe sport compared to many we play in the UK on a regular basis. Should we introduce licences to play football or squash for example?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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queen bodecia, I witnessed last week in Schladming for the spring break week end a bus load of VERY drunk germans , at 9am struggling to just get their skis and boots on, God alone knows what sort of havok they wreaked on the piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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queen bodecia, I've been taken out (like flying into the air) three or four times... I've also had a friend and intermediate skier who is a cancer survivor(only just) taken out by a very loud very out of control British female. She did not even stop in fact I was ahead and heard her "bragging" to her male buddies about the hit... to give an idea of the force of the impact - she hit my friend from behind(side on) and totally ripped the edge out of her hire ski...
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queen bodecia, I forgot... also saw a guy in Livigno clean up one of our group as we disembarked the lift... I saw the guy next to me swerve and instinctively copied... THANK GOODNESS... because the girl next to me did not and she ended up in the local hospital with concussion... The perpetrator(skiing down the nearby hill and straight over a lift unload area at full speed) was removed by the police who were taking him to retrieve his passport for identification purposes.
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beanie1 I meant that scuba diving is highly controlled. There are courses that you are required to take before you are allowed to do certain things...basic diving, open water, advanced open water, rescue diver etc etc. So it becomes a good comparison if similar controls were to be introduced for skiing.
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First problem - what about all those who can already ski - does everyone here want to waste part of thier very expensive holiday, and money, on mandatory beginner level tests before they can go skiing.
Second problem - recognition - will everyone recognise certificates from everyone else - what about snowdome, dry slope skiers - what abot the certificate i knocked up myself on my computer - the bureaucracy would end up being enormous.
Third problem - it would be worthless. A competence certificate at a low enough level to allow beginner holiday skiers to use lifts etc would be so low as to be useless. First week skiers ski unaccompanied for half the day even when having lessons the other half - is this to be banned until you have passed a test?
Fourth problem - what's the point? I have only been skiing 5 years, but in that time every injury to anyone I know skiing has been due to a solo fall, catching an edge etc, while generally skiing well within their abilities. Skiing carries a fair risk of injury due to this type of fall, but very small risk of death due to other people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
collisions with 'nutters'? How often does it actually happen? In all my years of skiing, I've never witnessed it
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queen bodecia,
My daughter(aged 7 then and an extremely able skier) was taken out no less than 3 times in one season, all by snowboarders who just had no control at all. One of the times the lad who collided with her tried to just disappear but my husband got hold of him , made him take his his snowboard off and walk up to where my daughter was, and collect her skis, poles and goggles , all of which she had lost in the collision, and apologize.
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Collisions resulting in serious injury happen from time to time, but they are rare. However, I think they're normally caused by attitude, rather than a lack of ability. Most of the people who crash into others could easily ski well enough / rein in their attitude long enough to pass a very low level test to get this theoretical licence. As soon as they had it their attitude would be back.
A much better way to make the pistes safer would be to be more pro-active in stopping skiers who are evidently out of control, giving them a warning, and if they re-offend confiscating their lift pass. Maybe even banning them from the resort.
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FAQ
