How much of race technique is exclusive to racing?

A snowHead

I remember long ago when I was young being told by a ski teacher that a particular technique was used by racers but it wasn't good style for ordinary skiing.
As most of you know by now, I am a fairly advanced steep and deep skier, and seldom ski deliberately on pistes. I have not had a lesson for several decades and seldom looked at the technique threads since I don't feel the need to work out exactly what my body does and what all the jargon means. (I have a feeling, though, that I probably use too much upper ski lead - though I'm not sure if it effects the efficacy of my skiing rather than just the look of it). I have never done any race training.

My question is this: how much of what is taught to racers is specific to race skiing and how much is just good technique for any skier, bearing in mind that ordinary skiers do not want to accelerate in the turn - they turn in order to keep their speed down.

If I decided to try some race training (ignoring the fact I would have to start thinking more analytically about what I do, which would be hard) how much completely new technique would be involved?

A snowHead

snowball, I'd say it would depend how solid your technique is...

I tried racing for the first time a couple of years ago (just NASTAR) with Fastman ... To get to gold medal level required nothing more than my regular skiing skills... Just clean initiations of Arc-2-Arc turns...

However if you have a default steer to edge or small step/pivot to start the turn you will find you need to shed that first... Ditto 'hoiking" body over skis to change edges or using rotation of upper body is not going to be very useful to you...

Then once you can ski clean you start to work on lateral balance (higher edges) and pivots and tactics - and you will be at it forever if you get hooked...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

what is "steer to edge"?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

snowball, Race training is much much more about good skiing than racing. There are specific techniques that may not be appropriate for soft snow...but.. Hard snow (or plastic) is a more demanding surface to ski on... mistakes and inaccuracies that will not matter on soft snow will quickly show up.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

daehwons, some folks seem to twist the ski to get to an edge... they cannot just edge without the steering action... you need to be able isolate the two actions... I'm probably describing it poorly as this is not my issue normally - I was hammered on carving way back but struggle to slide well(long story but it was due to my disabiliity)... You should be able to just tip the ski and place it on edge, or just twist(eg for a pivot to carve) and be able to blend the two(not for racing for everyday more useful skiing)... Also need edge finesse skills and rotational awareness to finesse the carve once you finish the pivot...

There seem to be a lot of folks that cannot quite get a clean arc-2-arc transition...

You'll need to Register first of course.

I guess its like a skid steer at the start of the turn rather than at the end of it.

So the person Skids/turns the ski on the flat of the ski it the beginning and then tilt ski over and carve the rest of the turn?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

snowball, have a read through this succinct summary Laughing

After all it is free

daehwons, The aim is the picture on the right, first line of photos at this site http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/Ski_Instruction_DVD_Video.html ... yes there will be a "smear" in the tracks in the new arc &/or transition... they may get a clean carve going eventually... or may have a slight twist the whole way through the turn - resulting in wider tracks (and slower speeds)(remember they are struggling to isolate tipping and twisting movements from each other so they may struggle no matter what the edge angle)...

snowball, as ski said, nothing radically new, but differences in the blend of what we do. As a primarily off-piste skier you'd notice you have to a) work the turn much more prior to hitting the fall-line, b) really carving the first phase of the turn properly gets the ski accelerating much more than you are used to so c) you need to concentrate much more on getting forward at the transition or the ski will leave you behind. Related to that, you'll also be d) minimising pressure in the last phase of the turn as we want the minimum braking effect of that resistance against the hill, but rather trying to allow a rapid transition into the next turn and very early pressure on the front of the ski (tip-dive is NOT a problem Wink

). You will also e) ski more one-footed than most of the time we are off-piste. You will also f) be making tighter turns than you'd make in free-skiing, so g) you'll use a lot more angulation.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

little tiger, thanks, though your answer from "However.." onwards uses several phrases which are no doubt well known on this part of the website but I'm not sure I understand. "default steer to edge"? "hoiking" body over skis"? I'm not even sure if by body rotation you mean what I do ( keeping the upper body looking down the slope much of the time) or the opposite.
ski, well skiing breakable crust, which I do reasonably well, is certainly quite demanding and cannot allow any expectation of skid (or you would fall when the ski broke through). I can ski a clean arc on a hard surface for long turns but smaller radius turns there is some break-away (judder or skid, depending if the surface is very hard or softer). Mind you, I am using off-piste skis - I could probably grip better with GS skis (it is a long time since I owned any). For example here is a tight turn at speed at Milton Keynes (taken by the Xscape automatic camera. I had built up as much speed as I could with longer turns first). You can see my track at the top of the picture - there is some skid but not a lot.

Edit: there have been lots more answers for me to absorb since I started to write this!!!!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snowball,

"default steer to edge" AIUI - inability to start a turn with ONLY a change of edges - NO twist at all in the skis - see tracks in link above

"hoiking body over skis"=throwing yourself down hill at start of turn... you do not want to throw away the pressure - but use it to carry you into next turn... (Sorry if that is not clear I'm not great at this)

rotation - I think I used it as "upper body rotation" = using arms/shoulders/body to start the turn (stick hands on knees and do short turns - how hard is it? - stick poles behind knees and make turns holding poles with hands between knees- be careful!!)

rotation is a tricky word - steering is rotation(of a weighted ski) ... counter is created through rotation, etc etc... too many parts & things rotate... rotated is a state of rotation used in skiing... If you are always looking down the slope you may be rotated/countered/anticipated depending on turn size/shape/completion/phase... Anticipation is good for a pivot bad for carving arc-2 arc(makes it harder)

snow reports

snowball, you'll need some new 165cm skinny skis as well Wink

kitenski, not if he races GS Wink

You know it makes sense.

..but then he'd need some skinny 185cm as well.

Touring bindings are probably not ideal either Wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

GrahamN, or just the 185cm and forget the slaloms Twisted Evil

(I'm being bad as I have hardly skied my slaloms last year)

A snowHead

This sort of raises a separate question. Do you NEED to practice on skinny skis to get good race technique, or is it the other way round - if you have good technique on 180 midfats with touring bindings, you'll be fantastic on narrow skis?

A snowHead

horizon, my ex has always said you should learn on skinnies as fats inhibit learning of good technique (then again he is old Wink

).... ummm IIRC Graham N described doing the DVD drills on his skinnies and fats in a review of using Fastman's DVDs (Basic Edging and Advanced Edging IIRC)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

horizon, yes, I tried doing some of the same exercises on 65mm slalom skis with rental bindings (don't think there was any race plate on), then 95mm with touring bindings. Much, MUCH harder on the (mid-)fatties: the balance point feels VERY different, torsional stresses are so much greater you back off what you're trying to do, and the edge hold was waaaay less secure. There was also a 12m radius difference, so that would also have had an effect - you really don't want to put them too much on the outside edge or you'll fall over. Yes you probably can do it on the (mid-)fats, but it's so much harder it's probably not a good learning pathway. Once you can do it on skinnies, then by all means refine it further on the fatties, but while learning you'd probably be having to force your body into even more unnatural positions as defensive measures I think it could be counter-productive. I love laying down tightish carves on my Kilowatts (provided there's some softness in the top cm or so of the snow), but I can't treat them nearly as hard as I can a SL ski, and don't think I could have got there starting on them straight off.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

little tiger, Keeping the upper body still is what I was talking about when I mentioned keeping facing down the slope - everything happens below the waist. It used to be how everyone was taught to ski, and is more necessary on steep slopes than most smooth pistes where the exercises you suggest sound not that hard to do.

I have been complemented on my angulation by one guide - which is very necessary on steep slopes too.

Re the "steer" and "hoiking" quotes I think I'm reasonably OK on that, then, though one can have very inaccurate ideas of one's own skiing, of course..

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

snowball

You'll need to Register first of course.

snowball, one picture is not necessarily a good measure of analysis, but having seen you ski a little at Hemel it sort of confirms my view then. Without actually feeling the ski conditions it's difficult to tell, but the tracks in that turn looks pretty smeared to me - it looks pretty pushed rather than carved to me; good in soft snow, but not the fastest in a course. But mainly, they'd want you standing with a much straighter outside leg than that. This would get you driving forward much more, in a stronger position and avoid that tendency to drop back thats quite clear in the photo (and I saw at Hemel). Angulation is good though, and position of inside shoulder is excellent. Amount of counter desired seems to be trainer-dependent - Fastman likes a lot, others I've had spend a lot of time trying to minimise it, and would certainly try to get you out of the default "face down the slope" attitude. I suspect in that photo that many would say you're achieving it maybe with the outside hip dropping back rather than the inside driving forward (as in that thread/pic of Arno's a short while back) - again related to the over-flexed outside leg.

Not saying I'm any better though Wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

All very interesting - I'm not sure what "counter" is, though. (I am looking forward to skiing with you in late March, GrahamN)

Sometimes now I quite like, when I am on an undemanding piste (travelling to or from somewhere I want to be), seeing if I can make sharp pencil tracks all the way and no skid at all. However I am talking big turns here. However, even at Hemel or MK (unless the snow is very hard) it is possible to look back up the slope when you get down and see how much skid there is in your tracks (as in my photo above - though I didn't do it that well there).

After all it is free

GrahamN, yay (I'm getting better at this I think) - I thought the same!

Fastman I'd say does not use a lot of counter - but likes to create it early in general (although he does like the ability to vary everything more)... I've skied with lots of people liked a little more counter at end of turn than him - but pushed me much less early in turn... I know his create counter early works well for me in longer turns - so atm I'm working on it still...

I am sure I must have got into some bad habits over the decades - and I have, as I said, never had any race training and only been down gates a handful of times in my life (to get the SCGB-gold race on a Fleche). What GrahamN said sounds right to me, too, looking at the photo.
Incidentally, getting the turn in at the right time to be on that MK automatic camera is really hard !!! And obviously you can't really get much speed on those slopes and I wasn't trying to emulate a racing turn, just do a turn and register a photo Very Happy

Off piste you obviously have to be ready to absorb anything under the snow that you can't see - not sure if that effects style.

Edit: not had an answer to what "counter" is yet.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

a quick google came up with this as a good piccie of what I'd say is a carved turn with no(?) skidding/smearing

snow reports

and perhaps an even better one...

I find is easier to think of counter-rotation in relation to 'old school' skiing down steep slopes. Traversing with skis (plus legs) pointing in one direction, a turn will result in the skis and legs pointing in the opposite direction. To keep weight on the downhill ski and to stop too much upper body movement, the shoulders have to stay facing down the slope to counter the rotation of the legs.
I believe this was a 'new' method in the 1960's (or thereabouts) as the previous orthodoxy was to use the rotation of the upper body to generate enough power for the turn.
The reason it is now old school is that modern ski turns occur by angulation and part of the turn initiation can come from dipping the outside shoulder slightly into the turn, Thus the shoulders do not face down the slope as much and there is less 'counter'.
But, I could be wrong.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

DB, this was around 1960 and I cannot remember Laughing

beequin, Well, I learned in the later 50s and early 60s. Of course I also learned skis tight together, which I have unlearned (possibly at times too much?) Even an approximate carve was quite difficult on the skis of those days.

kitenski, I don't think I have ever seen tracks quite as clean as those Shocked

He must have been wearing skates, not skis wink

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

DB, There are two ways to deal with a hard crust over softer snow. If you are fairly confident it will not break you can flatten your skis (and even counter-angulate which is hard to make yourself do if you have skied for a long time) and really skid down the slope. The other way which I do if I have any doubt is to really angulate and carve strongly: if you aren't skidding and break through it shouldn't affect you much.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

there are at least two ways ....

http://www.ifyouski.com/Technique/Alpineskiing/Offpiste/Crust/

Do you break the crust with your heels or with a jump turn?

Ruts upset carving high speed racers, I'd expect breakable crust to affect them more.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Ah, a question right up my alley.

snowball, successful racing is all about first developing good general skiing skills. You learn those outside of the course, then take them back into the course to apply them. As long as you can make a nice clean turn, race success is just a matter of learning how to place those turns in a course.

little tiger was spot on what she described the pitfalls in racing of smearing the beginning of a turn. It represents a one way ticket to the bottom of the results sheet in racing. We coaches work long and hard to teach our racers to ski what we call Arc to Arc, where the turn starts with absolutely no skid/smear. The skis are simply rolled from their uphill edges to their downhill edges as you transition from turn to turn, with a set of pencil thin tracks left on each side of the transition. Once you get that down pat, it's just a matter of learning how to tip your skis higher on edge so you can make your Arc to Arc turns even sharper.

GrahamN really nailed the evaluation of the skiing in your picture. You do have a bit of smear/skid right at the beginning or your turn, as is evidenced by the wider track as the ski start turning downhill, and how quickly that downhill change of direction happened. Getting them to turn that quickly required a twist, and it's evident in the track that it happened.

The reason it's happening is clear in what you say in your own words about how you like to keep your upper body facing downhill. That's a nice way to ski. The skis seem to almost automatically flow into the new turn, don't they? It's because of something we call anticipation. Anticipation is that position, right at the end of the turn, when your skis are pointing across the hill, while your body is pointing down the hill. That creates a torque is the body like a loaded torsional spring. The moment you finish the turn and release you edges, the spring is released, and the skis snap back into directional harmony with your downhill facing body. That I believe, from the limited information I have, is the origin of your beginning of the turn smear.

To eliminate that smear, you need to first try skiing with a little less counter. Counter refers to a stance in which if you're executing a left turn, your body faces to the right of the direction your skis are pointing. You can see that happening in the picture you posted. Some counter is beneficial, because it allows you to angulate effectively, which you do well. But currently you're allowing too much to develop at the end of your turn. Try letting your body turn and face a little more across the hill at the end of your turn, along with your skis. This will eliminate that overly anticipated position that is currently causing you to smear the start of your turn.

Next step to take to get yourself to skiing Arc to Arc is to do something I call the pelvic shift. At the end of your turn, as your skis are rolling off edge, drive your downhill hip forward. By forward I mean towards the front of your skis. That quickly eliminates all the counter you had in the previous turn, totally uncoiling the anticipation spring, and removing all twisting force that spring would impose on the skis.

At that point in your transition between turns, with your skis flat on the snow and your pelvis and body facing the same direction as your skis are pointing, keep gently driving your downhill hip forward, as you very slowy and softly roll your skis onto there downhill edges. You should feel the edges subtly engage, and the skis all on their own begin to cleanly arc/carve into the new turn. That's Arc to Arc.

One last thing. You need to understand the importance of driving your downhill hip forward as you enter the new turn. This is how you properly create counter. While you have plenty of counter in your skiing, you're creating it wrong. Take a look at your picture. See how your pelvis seems to be trailing your feet? It's because you're creating your counter by dropping your outside hip (right hip) back. That moves your entire pelvis aft (back), and overly flexes your outside knee. Not good, because that aft position does not allow you to load the front of the skis and start the turn aggessively, and the overly flexed outside leg is not a strong mechanism for supporting the forces that high edge angle carving produces.

If you drive your new inside (downhill) hip forward to begin your turn, your pelvis will lead your feet into the turn, you'll load the front of your skis for an aggressive turn initiation, and your outside leg will become long and strong. You may even find some of the excessive inside tip lead you've been noticing in your skiing may fade away.

Lot to absorb here, I know. You'll probably need to read through a couple times to make full sense of it. Perhaps even print it off and take it to the snow with you. I hope I wasn't too technical in my terminology, I tried to keep it layman. If anything went over your head let me know.

You'll need to Register first of course.

VERY interesting, FastMan. It will take me quite a while to absorb it.
Is all this something which you believe will benefit all my skiing or is some of it more relevant to racing?

By the way, on longer turns I think I do straighten my outer leg more as in this photo (I'm in orange)

I'm not saying who the person in front of me is, it might embarrass him (he skis better now).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

DB, Oh yes, there is the jumping method for breakable crust, but I hardly ever use it unless a very short turn is absolutely necessary (partly because I'm not very good at it - I'm not energetic enough rolling eyes

After all it is free

When I skied one day with Jess Stock the photographer he told me he once had an assignment photographing the British junior team. He took them off piste and when he turned round at the end of the first pitch he found there was nobody behind him - they were all scattered down the slope, lying in the snow. They just couldn't cope with off piste so he had to do all the photography on piste. Cool

Hah, that's me in front of snowball. Not embarassed - I do ski better now but I think that was a poor turn on a poor day, and I may well have been trying to touch the snow with my hand.. (The guy behind snowball skis MUCH better than he looks in that pic)

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowball,

I'm not getting any younger either. This is the only pic I could find me skiing windpressed crust at any sort of speed - the ABS ruck was new and the weight had me in the back seat. (well that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it)

Help!!

How much of race technique is exclusive to racing?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees