crossover vs crossunder

A snowHead

Quote:

Have a look through the montages here on LeMaster's site and you'll see what I mean.
http://ronlemaster.com/images.html

I couldn't find any other threads on this, so I'll drop this one in. Following another thread, I've been watching the Skiers Edge demo clips on their website, which got me thinking that it trains you to do crossunders more than crossovers.
Are the GS racers in the pics above using a crossunder, crossover, or a mix of the two? Which is best for recreational carving arc to arc turns on piste? (Looks to me like theres a bit of both, but probably more crossunder than normally taught in ski school even at fairly advanced levels...)

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gra, having just been on a Snoworks course and being repeatedly told to stay low, because a crossunder is the fastest way edge to edge.

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gra, crossover is easier and probably what most people do when they carve. Crossunder is more subtle and requires downweighting whereas most skiers will stand up and move across to change edge. Look at the photos where the athlete has an upward movement at the end of the turn, that's crossover. Where the athlete stays low or moves lower and the skis move across that's crossunder.

http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/gs2free_skiing.htm and http://youcanski.com/en/coaching/modern_technique.htm#Section5 are good links to explain it.

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both are good to use, cross under generally to make quicker moves and cross over for stronger bigger turns.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

gra, cross over is IMO a much more relaxing way to ski... because your legs are extended in the transition they get a rest.... Cross through and cross under are faster but tougher on the body and you need to get extending fast to not be back seat and just riding...

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little tiger, got drawings?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

FastMan, if you answer phone and tell me which ones NehNeh

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FastMan, here you go

Cross Over http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/cross_over.html

Cross Through http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/cross_through.html

Cross Under http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/cross_under.html

I have always thought crossover was extension with projection of CoM at transition, and crossunder edge change only at transition with extension and some projection only afterwards, and crossthrough I don't really understand but seems to essentially be a weak crossover?

In answer to the OPs question, for me at least, a carved crossunder has been easier to learn to do cleanly but I don't think I often do it well. It's quick and lazy but I think it's difficult to make it efficient. As little tiger says, you end up riding and not driving. A carved crossover I feel I'm still in the practise phase for. It's both more powerful and elegant and I can do it clean for long and medium but revert to crossunders (and I think crossthroughs?) for short turns or when I feel challenged. I could be completely wrong about this but from my still limited viewpoint I tend to think that everyone should try to learn to carve by crossover just like everyone should learn to do any turn by extension, and only resort to crossunder like down unweighting when a quick and dirty turn is needed like in slalom gates. I'd be particularly interested in what FastMan and GrahamN think?

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I am unfamiliar with these terms but going by the diagrams, the cross over one looks as though there is no extension or retraction, so surely it's very soft and probably hardly carved at all?

Doesn't it also make a difference depending on where on the fall line you use any of these turns? eg, if I want to turn it on, I'd probably use what's called here a cross-through but on the fall line or even just before reaching it. This would have a different effect in a normal (ie perp to the fall line) transition. Disclaimer: I'm kind of making this up as I go along... rolling eyes

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slikedges, we've crossed swords about cross-ver/under before. I do strongly disagree with you about anything other than crossover being quick and dirty - quick yes, but nothing dirty about it. I watched FastMan's DVD on this on Sunday, and he covers this very well - in as much as I agree with his analysis completely Laughing

! Previously I've also only heard of crossover and crossunder, but his cross-through makes a huge amount of sense - and is essentially what I do when looking for performance - and I think a lot of others may refer to it as cross-under. When you're moving down a snaking path it's a bit of a fine line whether the skis are moving under the body or the body is moving over the skis - both are moving from side to side and when the body moves less than the skis is that really the body moving over the skis in the opposite direction to that of the overall inertial frame (oh dear...cue another 24 pages, which forces are "ficticious" Wink

). FastMan reviews the benefits and drawbacks of all these methods pretty well.

Cross-through, as defined by FastMan and depicted by little tiger, is flexion of the legs as the CoM moves across the skis to keep it level, then extension from the crossing point until the body has moved into the new turn. This has always seemed to me as the fastest and most efficient transition. It minimises the up/down movement of the CoM, which always seemd very wasteful to me. It also minimises the resistance against the hill in the final phase of the turn that is required to lift the CoM away from the snow - so keeps the downhill momentum as high as possible. When coming into the new turn you're also in a flexed position, so allowing you to push your body down the hill as you extend towards the apex of the new turn. Finally it also overcomes a drawback I find when doing a fast crossover: as the CoM is rising at the approach to the crossing point itself, it has an upwards inertia; as you pass that crossing point that inertia keeps the CoM rising, further and further from the snow; hence you're getting an up-unweighting at the start of the new turn, exactly the place where you want to get pressure onto the skis to get them to bend in the new turn. Do it fast enough and you completely pop off the snow (but maybe I'm just doing it wrong). Doing the cross-through avoids that up-unweighting so allows you to get reliable pressure onto the ski much earlier. That up-unweight is of course useful if you're trying to do a pivot entry though.

Occasionally I will do a genuine cross-under if I need to make a very fast change, and actually suck up my legs and lift the skis of the surface, moving them under my body and put them back on the snow on the new edges. This is generally a panic measure though - but by heck it's quick. In the DVD FastMan shows doing this while essentially straightlining a slightly bumpy slope.

One disadvantages of the cross-under and cross-through though, as spelled out by FastMan in the DVD, is that flexing the legs does put us a bit further back, so we have to work very hard at staying on top of the ski. Get the confidence to really project forward though and you really feel the sensation of pushing yourself down the hill. It also means that your mass is being supported by just your muscles with much less skeletal support. When done passively (only extending as you body moves away from the skis) I actually find the cross-through a very efficient and non-tiring transition (because you're not pushing your body-weight up and down), but put in the active push/extension in the second half and it becomes quite tiring but very exhilarating as you pick up so much more speed. So if you don't need the transition speed its advantage is probably outweighed by those disadvantages. The feeling of each transition is so different and each fantastic in their own way, so I love doing maybe one pitch with one and one with the other. A cross-through/under blend is also a fantastic feeling when doing surfy turns in deep heavy snow (Graham Austick is a big fan of skiing like this, and it's huge fun).

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andyph, AIUI cross over sees extension at neutral... It is not the fastest - but the extension allows you to get fore for the start of teh turn more easily than the other 2 - which are not extended in transitions FYI I can do an ILE(cross over) transition for a turn that finishes 120degrees or 30 degrees to fall-line but I would think a cross-under would be much easier in a smaller degree of turn

Fastman was a little busy yesterday but will post descriptions and some photos tomorrow I think...

Does anyone think there's been a bit of a shift towards crossunder in ski technique "fashion" recently? Certainly it's something I've noticed on recent courses - it was mentioned only in passing 7 or 8 years ago, with the focus even for carving being on crossover.

One of my lessons on my Instructor course was crossover / crossunder.

You know it makes sense.

beanie1, quite possibly. Even as little as a year or two ago pretty much the only opinion I heard was that expounded by slikedges. In the last year though I've had more and more input that's pointing towards cross-through, but no-one's gone all-out and presented it to me as an integral concept in the same way that FastMan has. Surprising when you see so many of the Ron LeMaster montages that show just that.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

little tiger, yes, let's see some pics. I can almost see what you're saying but photos or even line drawings would be clearer. wink

A snowHead

A snowHead

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GrahamN, Ahh, I dun geddit now! wink

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This is a great topic, because there is so much disparity in how these terms are understood and used across the world of skiing. GrahamN did an excellent job of explaining the differences between Cross Over, Through, and Under, and the pros & cons of each. I'll just supplement with these photo representations of the 3.

The image below is of CROSS OVER. Observe Bode's old inside (uphill) leg extend as he finishes the turn around the red gate and goes through the transition (images 2,3,4). At image 4 he is just past edge angle neutral (the point where the skis have rolled off their uphill edges and are flat on the snow, about to roll onto the downhill edges and begin the new turn), and the old inside (new outside) leg is already fully extended. That extension of the old inside leg has brought his center of Mass forward, so he is in good position to load the front of his skis for the start of the new turn. It's crucial to point out that in doing that pre-neutral extension you must be gentle and subtle. Extending to aggressively will cause the problem that GrahamN described of losing connection with the snow. If that happens, the initiation of the turn will get delayed.

The next image, below this text, is of CROSS THROUGH. Here, notice how after passing the blue gate the old inside (uphill) leg stays flexed as the skier transitions to edge angle neutral (skis flat on snow). Significant extension does not start until after the the body has crossed to the downhill side of the feet, and the skis have begun tipping onto edge for the new turn. This type of a transition allows the Center of Mass to take a more direct path of travel across the skis than happens in Cross Over. But as you can see it puts the pelvis well aft of the feet at the beginning of the new turn (second last image). The new outside leg has to be quickly extended (as shown in the last image) to get recentered with a long/strong leg for the new turn. Lastly, notice how the body crosses from one side of the skis to the other, while the skis appear to continue traveling on a relatively ahead. It's a distinct characteristic that separates Cross Through transition from next one I'll show you; Cross Under.

In this last transition type, CROSS UNDER, the body (Center of Mass) maintains a more stable course of travel, and the feet cross back and forth aggressively under it. You can see that happenin the following Rocca montage. It's done by over angulating. The skis get pressured, bend and turn,,, but because the skier's Center of Mass is not aligned with the forces pushing on the skis, only the skis get moved across the hill. The body gets left behind. Because of that, the skis are usually pivoted back downhill so once reengaged they can catch back up with the skier. This is a dynamic and fun type of transition, that allows the skier to move in a more direct route down the falline, while the skis work back and forth underneath it.

Montages courtesy of Ron LeMaster

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

So how does a skier achieve crossover, crossthrough and crossunder?

Crossover looks to be just relaxing and extending alternate legs but what about crossthrough and crossunder?

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Crossover: extend the inside leg of the old turn; removing support from outside leg allows inertia to move body across the skis, long inside leg means it rises as it does so
Crossthrough: relax outside leg of old turn; removing support from outside leg allows inertia to move body across the skis, shorter legs keeps torso low as it crosses
Crossunder: additional angulation and edge angle at end of turn gets skis to turn sharper and pass under the body.

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Am I right that crossunder only really makes sense when the CM is following a line close to the fall-line?

Crossthrough is a new term to me but it seems to be what I am aiming to do in long turns - progressively relax the (old) outside leg so that the CM just "falls" down the hill and across the skis, then gradually increase the extension of the new outside ski to pick up the load. When it works it is very smooth/delicate.

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I can see where these different turning methods are used on a pisted race course but what about offpiste and in the bumps? Which technique could/would you use where?

GrahamN, a great drill to practice this stuff is "triple transitions" 3x to 5x of each of these in succession on an easy gradient.

DB, depends on what you are trying to do and what terrain you find yourself. these things tend to blend and arent on or off but are good to practice in isolation to get a feel for different techniques.

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Good illustrated explanation FastMan. Also explains why some racers (especially juniors) have a very pronounced up and down movement, while for others all the action is below the waist. If you'll forgive the expression. Toofy Grin

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FastMan, GrahamN, thanks for great explanations. A couple of questions come to mind: Is early inclination without angulation not a worthy goal, as it gets the new turning ski working early from a strong stacked position? Is this not best achieved by a crossover? And is this not because a good crossover generates forward projection of the body earlier in the turn? I can see that at race speeds there might not be much of an advantage to this as there's so much body inertia to quickly pull the body through that earlier projection is of less benefit than a quick edge change. Is the story not different at recreational speeds though?

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crossover vs crossunder

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